Competition DTT Reactor SFI flexplate

[Bandit1]

wow look at those jagged edges where the plate "broke", n such a high horsepower motor wouldnt you think that the center peice would have rounded itself and the out piece in a more round circle with no jagged edges. also if 2 pieces like that break something is going to bind up and something is going to get broken, and this caused no damage to the truck, a picture is worth 1000 words, bs

 

[MADDOG2]

wow look at those jagged edges where the plate "broke", n such a high horsepower motor wouldnt you think that the center peice would have rounded itself and the out piece in a more round circle with no jagged edges. also if 2 pieces like that break something is going to bind up and something is going to get broken, and this caused no damage to the truck, a picture is worth 1000 words, bs

The transmission was removed because while on a dyno something didn't seem right

when everything was unbolted (including the TQ) and the transmission was removed it was discovered that because of a major crack the two pieces became separated. Had I made another pass on the dyno or pulled hard off the line it would have destroyed itself.

 

[COMP461]

I question the whole deal, why would you not run a SFI flexplate just because a competitor to you sponsor make it , In reality a third party makes it Reactor. Reactor is very much concerned about racers safety, and has a history of extensive testing with SFI I sent mine out to a independent NDI “ nondestructive inspection shop’ , a Navy Shop , because it was a favor that I pulled in to verify that the fly wheel did not have a metallurgical flaw . the part was excellent, with no cracks , even on a microscopic level.



The ideal that a diesel is so powerful as to break something as built proof as this piece , because it’s a diesel is ludicrous , the damage looks to me to be one of the converter spacing not being right , or the clutches in the trans mission exerting force on flex plat in a forward or back motion, another might be that the pilot bushing did not properly support the center and forward thrust of the converter. What ever the case it should have been inspected in its entirety , with all the pieces involved , not just the flex plate , when you perform a forensic analysis of the damage , to appraise the mechanisms of damage you need all the potential causations .



In racing things are pushed to the limit ,and the weak link will give , the appropriate action would have been to give the manufactory of the part a call, will all the possible information, possible to make that part stronger. Unless……. .



Finally when it come to safety , we are all in the same boat , the knowledge to make our sport safer is the quest Wally Parks , founder of NHRA strived for over 50 years ago , there should be no petty quarrels when it comes to safety issues , if you know something that will fix or potential avoid a dangerous situation , share it !!!!!!!!. that racer might be in the other lane when that issue fails

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

wow look at those jagged edges where the plate "broke", n such a high horsepower motor wouldnt you think that the center peice would have rounded itself and the out piece in a more round circle with no jagged edges. also if 2 pieces like that break something is going to bind up and something is going to get broken, and this caused no damage to the truck, a picture is worth 1000 words, bs

I wasn't even going to get involved in this but with some of the slamming going on I just feel I needed to put 2 cents out there because it's Sunday and raining and I am bored.



I work in an industrial facility and I have seen many times where something isn't quite right and it doesn't truly show itself until the unit is shutdown. Typically things are engineered for normal operations and the forces imposed on an item during shutdowns with an abnormal part can be the death of them. I find it 100 percent possible that things happened as Maddog said.



I remember seeing pictures around here of stock type flexplates that failed in operation that looked very similar. You guys are right though if it was running when it happen you would see rounded edges, but what if the final breakage occurred during shutdown, you know that quick belt chirping stoppage that the Cummins does!



I'm done

 

[snowracer69]

I would like to know how detailed a look SFI and others actually gave the broken plate.



Did they look at the fracture surfaces under a microscope? How 'bout an electron microscope? It is absolutely simple to tell how a metal piece failed when looking at the surface under a very good scope.



I would assume, beings that SFI is what it is, that they have people on staff who could be considered metallurgists and would know this sorta stuff...



why are you doubting what SFI is saying about the mode of failure? Just because Stefan is the only one reporting it? Obviously there are only a very few people who know EXACTLY what happened and how/when the plate was broke... the rest of us can only speculate and go off data given by others...



oh to be a fly on the wall when whatever happened was being done...

 

[Fletcher]

I would like to know how detailed a look SFI and others actually gave the broken plate.



Did they look at the fracture surfaces under a microscope? How 'bout an electron microscope? It is absolutely simple to tell how a metal piece failed when looking at the surface under a very good scope.



I would assume, beings that SFI is what it is, that they have people on staff who could be considered metallurgists and would know this sorta stuff...



why are you doubting what SFI is saying about the mode of failure? Just because Stefan is the only one reporting it? Obviously there are only a very few people who know EXACTLY what happened and how/when the plate was broke... the rest of us can only speculate and go off data given by others...



oh to be a fly on the wall when whatever happened was being done...

I'm satisfied w/ the report findings. Metallurgical destructive fatigue root cause analysis (Reliable engineering world of CBM/TpM ) devisers the component mortally. I think someone's trying to get something for free? Down at the livestock auction “if your Holstein limps, you don't walk it around” (lowers the price per pound)

This concludes my research, next subject please……. :-laf

 

[MADDOG2]

I would like to know how detailed a look SFI and others actually gave the broken plate.



Did they look at the fracture surfaces under a microscope? How 'bout an electron microscope? It is absolutely simple to tell how a metal piece failed when looking at the surface under a very good scope.



I would assume, beings that SFI is what it is, that they have people on staff who could be considered metallurgists and would know this sorta stuff...



why are you doubting what SFI is saying about the mode of failure? Just because Stefan is the only one reporting it? Obviously there are only a very few people who know EXACTLY what happened and how/when the plate was broke... the rest of us can only speculate and go off data given by others...



oh to be a fly on the wall when whatever happened was being done...

1. First of all I have not seen any results from SFI, Reactor, or NHRA. I was told last Thursday by Bill that there was no rotational damage, and that the other three concurred with those findings. What I refuse to accept is the accusations and slander from Bill and Stefan that I have deliberately broken the reactor flexplate by conspiring with ATS and Eric McBride to undermine them. There is no truth in this and they are making efforts to twist and distort all they can to make DTT come out clean. I am not expecting or demanding anything "FREE" from DTT with the exception of one thing, and that is the truth.



2. If in fact those are the findings of SFI, Reactor, and the NHRA I am not satisfied, because despite what DTT will have you believe I know the flexplate failed, the TQ was installed correctly, and everything fit like it should. It failed in my truck and I think I have the right to know why.

 

[nieters]

i heard eric wasn't going to allow these flexplates on the dhra tracks. so the question would be whose flexplates are allowed? the ats plate is not.

 

[COMP461]

i heard eric wasn't going to allow these flexplates on the dhra tracks. so the question would be whose flexplates are allowed? the ats plate is not.

I don't beleive thats Erics call, the track belonge to NHRA or IHRA , the DHRA uses them , the NHRA rules are alwas the finnel word on Safty

 

[fox]

MADDOG2, why is it even posted here?????

Your issue is with SFI and possibbly with who ever installed the flex plate.

It is SFI that says there is no rotational damage.



Please explain to all of us why you want this on the TDR .

It looks to most of us that you want to bash the Kondolay's.



To the Kondolays, I see this all the time.

When a company gets to the top of the mountain first, some people want to throw things at you. They don't throw it down hill.

If the moderators don't delete this whole thread, I will be disapointed in them.

We know what it is about.

 

[Bandit1]

i agree with fox, which is the entire reason that i posted in the first place. if singling out one person and bashing them isnt against guidelines then nothing should be. company opinions or even at extreme opinions on single people is what this is all about but there should be line and i think it was crossed, i am done wasteing my time.

 

[Fletcher]

So, it was an incorrect installation process that caused the breakage?

Very interesting.

 

[ecpeters]

Just my two cents worth as far as DTT is concerned. I had a DTT torque converter and transmission installed back when DTT was telling everyone you needed to use a special front seal or you could have a leak. Well I go to pick up my truck with DTT trans and converter and guess what trans oil every were. Shop pulls the trans and the seal was blown call to DTT again I was told I used the wrong seal . Well I did what any good tech nerd would do measure old and new converters and I found a one tenth of a inch oversized on the inside shoulder. I call Bill and ask if he changed vendors and he said he did and asked why I asked. I told him of the improper weld and machining and that it was the cause of all of the seal failures they were having. Bill did not once ever consider that there was a problem with his product it was the improper use of a seal. My point is that I had to point out the problem any good MFG would check his product for proper spec's.

 

[fest3er]

I don't beleive thats Erics call, the track belonge to NHRA or IHRA , the DHRA uses them , the NHRA rules are alwas the finnel word on Safty

Sorry. DHRA is a sanctioning body; we have our own sets of rules. NHRA have accepted our drag racing rules as alternates, and SFI have inspected and approved our drag racing and sled pulling rules. When it comes to our races, our rules are final; NHRA and IHRA rules do not apply to our races.



And yes, it is for Eric and me to call, and you can bet cash money that Eric will consult with SFI and NHRA, and maybe even IHRA, when it comes to safety considerations.



Neal

 

[COMP461]

Sorry. DHRA is a sanctioning body; we have our own sets of rules.

Correction in verbiage

The DHRA is an ALTERNATE SANCTION ORGANIZATION.

Definition : you have summated , and had approved a set of rules that are with in the bounders of NHRA rules , you can run at NHRA facility’s , and use NHRA licenses and chassis tags. All safety rules are up to NHRA and the people they consult , IE manufactures and SFI . Any proposed changes in those rules will have to be approved by NHRA . The newly advertised member tracks are NHRA or IHRA track , that will allow you to run you races concurrently with their races . this amounts to a great ideal , , similar to club racing IE corvette night , mustang night , or Super Chevy Sunday. The Fast growing and newly organized NHRDA is doing similar things , getting with track owners and bringing out a small but dedicated group of racers and letting the track keep points. This is really just like bowling leagues .

When it comes to our races, our rules are final; NHRA and IHRA rules do not apply to our races.

outlawing a SFI approved product with out due process is no different then letting a truck run more then one sub 10 run with out the proper safety equipment

And yes, it is for Eric and me to call, and you can bet cash money that Eric will consult with SFI and NHRA, and maybe even IHRA, when it comes to safety considerations.



Neal

Lets just make um up , as we see fit , and if we don't like a manufactory , lets just out law their product, even if it is SFI approved. that will win a few sponsors over

 

[fest3er]

MADDOG2, why is it even posted here?????

Your issue is with SFI and possibbly with who ever installed the flex plate.

It is SFI that says there is no rotational damage.



Please explain to all of us why you want this on the TDR .

It looks to most of us that you want to bash the Kondolay's.



To the Kondolays, I see this all the time.

When a company gets to the top of the mountain first, some people want to throw things at you. They don't throw it down hill.

If the moderators don't delete this whole thread, I will be disapointed in them.

We know what it is about.

Richard's issue is with safety. The flex plate failed for unknown reasons. To the best of his knowledge and ability, installation and removal procedures and fit were correct. The obvious safety question is, "Why did the plate fail?" Was it a metallurgical failure? A defect in the material? Abnormalities in its use? A defect in that which is connected to it? A design defect? An engineering defect?



When a piece of certified safety equipment fails, I expect everyone involved, from vendor to manufacturer to certifying body, to rally 'round and determine the root cause of the failure. Receiving a curt "wasn't this type or that type of failure, so it's not a problem" is not an acceptable response.



Trust me, I'll have no problem banning a piece of certified safety equipment if even one failure goes unexplained.



And though I've never met Mr. Madsen, and wouldn't know him if I tripped over him, I think he's man enough to accept the results of a real root-cause-of-failure analysis if it points to a failure on his part or those if his mechanics.



The flex plate failed, whilst thousands of others from the same manufacturer have not failed. Why? That is the question Maddog wants answered. it's the question I want answered. Because if a flex plate lets go unexpectedly, it's possible the engine could vastly over-rev before the fuel could be governed. And I really don't want to see massive chunks of metal from a Cummins B flying into a crowd of spectators, because then we'll have victim's lawyers asking, "Why?" And when lawyers get involved, answers become very expensive.



Neal

 

[wilddiesel]

I have known Richard for a long time, he is as honest a person as they come. All he wants is answers.

 

[justinp20012500]

Stefan,



How many of your DTT/Reactor flex plates are in use right now?

 

[Fletcher]

Richard's issue is with safety. The flex plate failed for unknown reasons. To the best of his knowledge and ability, installation and removal procedures and fit were correct. The obvious safety question is, "Why did the plate fail?" Was it a metallurgical failure? A defect in the material? Abnormalities in its use? A defect in that which is connected to it? A design defect? An engineering defect?



When a piece of certified safety equipment fails, I expect everyone involved, from vendor to manufacturer to certifying body, to rally 'round and determine the root cause of the failure. Receiving a curt "wasn't this type or that type of failure, so it's not a problem" is not an acceptable response.



Trust me, I'll have no problem banning a piece of certified safety equipment if even one failure goes unexplained.



And though I've never met Mr. Madsen, and wouldn't know him if I tripped over him, I think he's man enough to accept the results of a real root-cause-of-failure analysis if it points to a failure on his part or those if his mechanics.



The flex plate failed, whilst thousands of others from the same manufacturer have not failed. Why? That is the question Maddog wants answered. it's the question I want answered. Because if a flex plate lets go unexpectedly, it's possible the engine could vastly over-rev before the fuel could be governed. And I really don't want to see massive chunks of metal from a Cummins B flying into a crowd of spectators, because then we'll have victim's lawyers asking, "Why?" And when lawyers get involved, answers become very expensive.



Neal

He’s one of your division's Directors. A sanctioning body means; you have their permission to use the insurance. As far as the failure, I wonder if the ford trans index correctly.

 

[I-6DZL]

This thread reminds me of what i always say " there's 3 answers to every story, your answer, my answer, and the TRUTH"



Now maddog has posted his answer : This is a safety concern, wich it is. This sFI approved plate should not have failed, wich it shouldn't. Is all the truth coming out from him??? Who the hell knows, unless there is a tid-bit of info he's not sharing.



And Stefan has posted his answer : Again, this is a safety concern, the plate should not have failed, maddog intentionally broke it (hence the 3 strange marks on it)



And finally the TRUTH : Now everyone needs to stop and think for a minute... HOW THE HELL ARE WE GOING TO GET THE TRUTH ??? No truth will ever come out on either of the sides above. SFI/inspection personel, IHRA, DHRA, NHRA, and even the FFOA need to post their version of the TRUTH!! Not just an answer that gets passed down from person to person in the chain of command throught the different companies involved.



Anyone agree?? Or agree to disagree??



*please note i am NOT bashing anyone with my response, i am NOT saying ANYONE is lying here. I as well as others just want the truth to come out. Truth meaning I WANT answers from anyone doing the inspection. Stefan if you inspected it, great post away. If not, then leave the posting up to Bill. Maddog obviously you've inspected it, and preached your opinion, thanks. Fester, i think it's time to bring the SFI paperwork out the racing public to clear the air, either in favor of DTT/Reactor or Maddog. I for one don't really care who wins this battle, but would rather see the racing industry as a whole win the battle.



Thanks for the time



Curtis