Dura-Dud

[BK]

Gotta read this thread.

Some real classic comments... talk about trying to find the silver linning in a black cloud... ...



Dura-Dud



Wonder how long such a thread will last in their board?



Here's a good one about such posts...



missing posts



Enjoy,

Bob

 

[Texas Diesel]

EXCELLENT STUFF Thanks

 

[Big_Bad_Dually]

HA HA HA AAHHAHAHA

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[Rockcrusher]

Wow, glad I checked this out. I had looked at the new GMC Duramax and Allison and was impressed with the propaganda, but now I think I'll stick to Dodge TDC.

 

[danandamy]

uneducated buyers

Here's my suggestion. If their board spent more time like the TDR and Ford boards and aired out their problems instead of spending all their time hyping the company line, these folks wouldn't be upset or surprised. I have talked to several folks with the Allison D/Max set up and that is just how the transmission behaves. When pulling, it will not upshift to fifth. As for the guy who thinks that diesels make their power at lower rpms, he was obviously unaware of the fact that V8 diesels make their power at high rpms, much like a gas powered vehicle. The low rpm power isn't so much a diesel characteristic as it is a characteristic of the L6 design.

I have as much fun as anyone razzing these guys about their "super truck" and all but reading over this thread, I don't really think the guys have much to gripe about except for the fact that they bought all the hype and didn't find out about some of the, shall we say, non hyped aspects of the set up. As one guy over there pointed out, griping about milage while being able to pull a trailer 70 is a big improvement over the 6. 5 days.



Dan

 

[MABurns]

A FRIEND

Everybody has "a friend" that has a DuraMax and there is a big conspiracy going on out there.

Well I own a 94 Dodge CTD, a 99 24V CTD and a 2002 Chevy with the Duramax. Yes, time and mileage will tell if it has the durability of the CTD. But I, not a friend, am here to tell you that Duramax is no joke. It's peak torque is at 1800 RPM, much like the CTD.



Is it as heavy duty as the RAM 2500? NO WAY!



But does the Ram 2500 ride like it has square wheels compared to the GM 2500HD. Hell yes. Open your eyes please. This is not your father's Oldsmobile. Competition is good. Maybe Dodge can improve theirs.



Anybody want a real crew cab?

 

[BK]

Re: A FRIEND

Originally posted by MABurns



clip... .

Anybody want a real crew cab?

Heck no, thats why I went with the Quad cab. I don't want another 1-2 feet in length. Don't like the way the 4 doors look. Don't want to stand in two different spots to access that front and back space. No center post in the way with a Quad Cab.

I know there are those that are out there that want a full crew cab. I wanted something between an Extra cab and crew cab. The Quad cab filled the bill perfectly and a real diesel in it to boot and a solid front axle under a real engine too!!



12mpg pulling through the hills of NY and PA loaded to the hilt @ 70mph... and with out OD. . The one GM link talked about how his Duramin got under 10mpg (range of 6-8) no matter what he did towing with a good sized load... and no one blamed the engine... just the transmission... . and it wasnt defective at that, it's what the transmission needs todo to keep the engine happy it seems..... with our "terrible" Dodge auto and I6... I get twice in the mountains than reported by the one honest Duramin owner. Again the best part was, noone said there was a problem... ..... Even towing off road in low range, in the sand, I have not seen under 10 mpg.



Bob

 

[MABurns]

I have pulled a 10,000 lb 5th wheel all over the country with Cummins equipped trucks, and always managed around 12 or so MPG towing and 18-19 empty. Granted I do not have that same amount of miles/experience with my new Duramax but all I can say is it does a hell of a lot better on the hills around here, and milage is around 12 towing and 18 empty. So again time will tell.



I also spend 90% of my driving without a 10,000 trailer in tow so I am kinda glad I don't have that live axle (which felt like it was welded to the frame at times)under me when I drive to work all the time.



The new 4 door (2002) Ram has about the same amount of legroom as a extended cab Chevy. I want to haul people too. Crew cab may not be for everybody but I sure do hear alot of complaining on the TDR about DC not making one until now.



I am as hard a guy as any to change in my ways. But I have both and I like them both. I'll let you know in 200,000 miles which is better. In the mean time I wouldn't believe everything you hear. Go drive one!

 

[BK]

Originally posted by MABurns



clip... .

The new 4 door (2002) Ram has about the same amount of legroom as a extended cab Chevy. I want to haul people too. Crew cab may not be for everybody but I sure do hear alot of complaining on the TDR about DC not making one until now.



I am as hard a guy as any to change in my ways. But I have both and I like them both. I'll let you know in 200,000 miles which is better. In the mean time I wouldn't believe everything you hear. Go drive one!

I do believe that each has their own spot. And I agree and even said that I know there are folks out there in TDR land that wanted a true 4 door. . I'm just not one of them and there was a reason DC went with a Quad Cab... to fill a void in the market. Even when they did I remember the debates on the lists, if a QC would be too weak...

With all my experiances with tin can heads on top of cast iron blocks, there is no way that anyone is gonna talk me into spending my money on a such a design when I know I'll be really working the engine. And noone it gonna talk to me about design concepts... . I know all about "comprimises" in a design to achieve certain goals, and tin can heads are one of them. Again my HO and thick headed position based on my 20 + years of dealing with tin can heads and fighting design comprimises.

All of my older trucks, except for my van were harder riding than the Dodge. I guess I'm not one of those folks that the big 3 are targeting each time they spin a new generation of trucks to become more like a car (one reason I almost bought a f*ord... real leave springs up front,, but I hate the PSD and I wanted a diesel). A HD truck with a twin A frame torsion bar suspension?. . no thanks. But MABurns. . it does seem we do agree on most things, your just braver than I am to be Chevy's beta tester. We all have "our own" reasons for buying what we bought.

 

[MCummings]

Well, Like it was said,, everybody has a friend who owns a DuraDud,, ahah, I like that one. . Duramax.



I am quoting EIS01 from "over there"

------------------------

With all due respect, your truck is not a normal D\A. I pull 12,000 about every day, up hill and down. I have not found a hill that I cannot pull at 55 Miles and Hour (8% Grade), and I am seldom hit 3200 RPM's ever when towing, unless I stump on it when taking off. My mileage is tracked in a computer program since I bought the truck, it now has 15,000 miles on it. The truck average is 14 MPG, and on a recent trip towing 3,000 pound trailer it got over 18 MPG. That 14 MPG number is with over 50% of the time towing over 10,000 pound trailers. All I am trying to say by this is that your truck must have some type of problem, unless ours are not the norm!

-------------------------



My Dad's D-Max hits 3,200RPM constantly. Takes only the smaalest hill with cruise on, and it downshifts,, and has about a ~200RPM drop when the torque converter locks up.

We pull a good sized trailer with ours,, the trailer alone can go upwards of 26,000 Pounds.

This D-Max will absolutely RUN! up all hills. towing the trailer We can maintain 80MPH on nearly any hill. (the hills down here are "small")

Compared to my former "stock" Dodge/Cummins, this thing hauls butt. but won't pass any fuel Station.

I have put $1,000 into "power upgrades" and my truck makes our D-Max look, feel, and IS, s--l--o--w.

I think most of those guys trucks aren't normal, or ours isn't normal. We have an AMSOIL air filter. and that's it. Dad WILL NOT Do anything else to the truck,, just like he didn't do anything else to ALL His Dodges. (when I got my truck,, that's a different story )



Ugh, So Much hype on the DuraDud, so little actually coming off the paper.



MerrickNJr

 

[MABurns]

I suppose there were some teamsters out there (I mean the actual horse teamsters) that thought those horseless carriages would never replace the horse and wagon. Wait until next year when Peterbuilt and Kenworth come out with their independent front suspensions. Then what will we do. Put wooden wheels on instead of rubber tires. Live Axle does not = HD.

 

[danandamy]

Shew, for a minute there I thought you were gonna say "Wait until Kenworth and Peterbuilt come out next year with aluminum headed V8 engines. . " LOL



Dan

 

[BK]

Dan, I had to laugh, as I was reading MABruns' reply I was thinking the same thing... . I didnt scan ahead... so I was thinking the same







It's all relative...



In general MABurns, your comment is not wrong. A broad assumtion like that can't be made... .

"Live Axle does not = HD"



So lets get down to the brass tacks...

We're comparing consumer oriented trucks and a Dana 60 with a Chevy IFS.

Take a look at the history of the Chevy IFS, (never mind being IFS, but torsion bar IFS at that, ugh... theres ways and than there are better ways even within the world of IFS, so don't get the ideas that I'm stuck in the stone age, but the IFS design is a whole lot older than your aware of).

When Chevy 1st came out with it there were soo many problems with it that the "rumors" went around that Chevy was gonna go back to a solid front axle in the 2500 and 3500. But the push for ride quality kept the IFS.

There has been soo many problems with the Chevy IFS, that it's the 1st IFS front end that you can buy a WHOLE kit from several aftermarket companies to put a solid front axle in to replace the IFS. These companies wouldn't have gone through the trouble if there wasn't a market and money to be made. So never mind my engineering opinion here... take a look at where money is being spent.



I'll say that you can look to the Hummer for a good IFS, but there are several other weakness in that design (common with other IFS designs), the crappy 1/2 shafts, lot more "ujoints". Did you know that in Dessert storm the 1/2 shafts were their most common thing to break on the hummer. Take alook at what helps keeps your corner auto store in business... FWD IFS 1/2 shafts not RWD axle shafts.

And the military has been trying to get the GM diesel out of the hummer for the last ~10 years (woops I guess another GM dig, sorry). The new replacement for the hummer coming out will still be IFS, but with the hummer's weakness designed out and it wont be GM based.



Again, getting back to design comprimises... Chevy stuck with whats cheap, light and provides a good ride. . HD not being the main goal, thats self evident.

I'll tell you that their list of goals in order of importance was -

1)price

2)ride quality & unsprung weight reduction

3)design - 4wheel drive - ability (making the design 4wd)

4)-9)=?

10)ruggedness (if you worried about being HD and off road ability, who leaves a torsion bar hanging that low?

atleast Toyota tucked it up above the frame to protect it!)





Mind you, that parts of Chevy's IFS design are well over 60 years old. Others about 40 or so, so we're not talking about ground breaking design concepts here. These design concepts were around well before the radial tire!. . but just after the wooden wheel and solid rubber tire.





(Again as I said earlier, each p/u truck design has their place in life, I'll never deny that from the factory the Chevy has a better ride quality unloaded)



While IFS can provide more articulation off the bat and save some weight, but there are more suspension moving parts and in the cheap world of automotive manufacturing, more parts for them to skimp on that are holding your truck up. I'm sure over the years GM has spent as few pennies as needed to patch the weakness in their " trucks' " IFS design. - Just like every other manufacturer.

 

[BigUgly]

Straight Axle

I've only owned one truck that WASN'T straight axle... . Okay, so it was 2WD. To me, 4WD means a straight front axle, there is no IFS 4WD, it's only IFS All Wheel Drive. Look at the HD pickups out there, Dodge = Straight Dana 60, Ford = straight Dana 50 or 60, Chevy = IFS? I will never own a IFS 4WD vehicle, if that is all that's offered, and I'm stuck on a new truck, I'll put a Dana 60 on there. Heck, I don't really like our front ends too much. I had to work hard to except coil springs and CAD . Granted, I Could have gotten a Ford... ... ... ..... Nah!

Josiah

 

[BK]

Josiah,

I agree with you, I almost bought a F*rd because of the CAD in the Dodge... But history was showing that the CAD was proving itself and the PSD had more negatives in my book.



Bob

 

[JoeyD]

BK, The reason that ORU offers a strait axle conversion is the most popular lift kit sold is the GM IFS. And as far as costing a manufacturer, a solid axle and leaf springs would be the cheapest way to give FWD.

I also believe, I could be wrong, but the reason for the half shafts on the Hummer breaking is caused by the brake rotors mounted next to the differential before the shafts. So when the throttle is applied they twist one way and then the brakes give them a jerk the other way.

Someone also makes a kit to get rid of the CAD in the Dodge trucks. It gives manual hubs and one piece axle shafts.

I also agree that live axle does not equal HD

 

[BK]

Since there are more stamped parts in the Chevy front end , as with most IFS's, the IFS is cheaper and lighter, thats why it's soo popular with manufacturers. NRE for presses and dies are there, but it's recovered in sales volume and RE of the parts are extremely low, and Spare sales are very profitable.



The reason the Chevy lift kit is soo commonly sold. . they're one of the lowest full size 4x4s p/u. Not counting the Ford Exscursions and such, those SUVs that most of the owners arent gonna lift.



Torsion bars are far lighter than leaf springs. Toss up between coil and torsion bar as to which is lighter all together (additional mounts needed with torsion bars)



I agree with the general comment that a live axle doesnt have to mean HD. . but in a nuts to nuts comparision of the cheby torsion bar IFS Vs the Dodge straight axle... there's no way anyone can even compare the two or think the Cheby is stronger.

Try landing that brittle torsion bar on a rock. It's got one single real bad weak link. . never mind the A frames. Many police agencies wont buy a car with torsion bar suspension, very bad track record with the Dodges they used in the 70's. Torsion bar technology hasnt changed for over 40 years.



As far as way dodge went with the CAD, they were trying to not spend a ton of bucks on a worthy set of hubs. The technology behind the CAD design is old too, just a different industry. The CAD is stronger than the set of hubs they would of shipped on the truck. There are no hubs to break on the Dodge... . and except for a few dirty stuck CADs, there has not been a mass calling of breaking CADs. I've never heard of one broken CAD.

I still admit I would prefer hubs. . but again history has proven the CADs worth.



I know the hummer has inboard rotors. . but your thinking is incorrect of the transmission of torque. If the rotors were at the end of the 1/2 shaft AT the wheel, than your thinking would be correct. The 1/2 shafts , as a drive shaft, are meant to break before the tiny plantery gears do in the hummer's wheel hubs.

But to have 4 fuses is a big liability. It greatly reduces the MTBF of the truck.

 

[JoeyD]

What makes a torsion bar weak? I have taken my truck 4wheeling plenty and must have hit a rock or two. They are also plenty heavy not much lighter if any than a leaf, a front leaf anyway, and definetly heavier than a coil.

The Dodge front end is held in with four stamped steel control arms. The front of my truck has a forged lower comtrol arm and a tubular upper.



In MA, the state police use GM 2500 pick ups and have tons of suburbans, they also use Expeditions and the town I live in uses GM trucks



I have also never replaced any front end parts on my truck. I read plenty of complaints about the death wobble. So they all have bad points.

 

[BK]

I agree that they all have their bad points...

The front end design of the Dodge was the main thing that had me looking at Fords... I've always conceeded that... the design was fine on light jeeps... but on the heavy 2500 with the ISB. And yes the track bar and the link suspension set up isn't as good as a leaf spring setup.

I'll give ya points for the 5 link suspension/track bar.

It was the point of getting rid of a solid axle Vs IFS. . I can get home with a death wobble. . but it's much harder to get home with a tire shuffed up into the wheel well when the torsion bar snaps.



Torsion bars are twisted to provide the spring action to provide support. The very action of the increasing and decreasing of the twisting action increases how brittle they become. They tend to snap just from use, but take something thats under such tension and give it a good wack and it will resonate, vibrate. . shatter. . The action is different than when the metal grain is at rest.



The very 1st police that took up using the Chevy Surburban did so cause the front seat of the sedans got soo tight and loaded with equipment due to the increase in equipment they now need to use while driving and the reduced size of the "full size" cars.

That 1st choice years ago open the door for what's being bought now for many other reasons besides the original reasons.



I 100% agree that they all have their faults and all have their place.



I'll just take mine with out a beer can head and with a solid front axle!

 

[JoeyD]

I go 4 wheeling with guys that have lifted GM IFS trucks and have never heard of someone snapping one or anything related to the bars. Most lift kits for these trucks leave the bars exposed when dropping the crossmember and have never seen or read in any magazines about a bar breaking. Aren't they made from the same spring steel that all springs are made from. I have broken leave springs so they all could break I just never seen a broken torsion bar.

If we all drove trucks with bear can heads we would have more reasons to drink more beer.