Dura-Dud

[BK]

Your right... . if GM sells more Duramins... we could help GM by drinking more beer, as pointed out by one of Our member's tag line!!! We should have these talks over some beers and donate those cans!! Should help reduce the cost of the GM truck if the cans were donated.



I've had my fill of broken torsion bars on Dodges, As well as the city cops I knew when they had them and the NYC transit authority mechanics I know (Dodges from years ago and GM now). I have a friend with a 4x4 shop with a lifted GM with the bars, broke one so far. I think if they followed suite with Toyota, they've would have been able to protect a weak point.



And I have one friend with a 95 Dodge gasser w/ 80K, he's gone thru one track bar. I'm sure I'll be going thru one or two easily. I'm 25K of a lot of off road, towing and towing off road. I grease the darn thing (any any other fitting DC saw fit to put on) each time I do an oil change (every 3K miles or so) and it always needs grease. My buddy hardly ever greased his.



That should be another whole poll,,, How often do you grease yours? And how long have your gotten out of your stock track Bar?

 

[Scot]

Torsion bars are twisted to provide the spring action to provide support. The very action of the increasing and decreasing of the twisting action increases how brittle they become. They tend to snap just from use, but take something thats under such tension and give it a good wack and it will resonate, vibrate. . shatter. . The action is different than when the metal grain is at rest.

BK



I know I am talking about a much lighter vehicle but... I started out working on VW's back in JR High. Front and rear torsion bars.



I have jumped a competition grade dune buggy over a rice canal bridge in excess of 100 mph and was high enough to see the tops of trees. Probably 20-30' Like other kids, I was invincible in High School.



We had beetles made into a pickups on the deer lease that saw abuse that you would not imagine. There was a hill that was impassible to 2x4 pickups and some 4x4's. It was a short winding 200' vertical climb over a bed of golf ball sized rocks covering the large ones mixed with the basketball sized ones. At the top you had to bust over an outcrop of rock 18" tall if the concrete (to fill the eroded hole and make a ramp) below it was intact. At this point you were climbing probably 30* over 20'.



We broke alot of hardware but never a torsion bar in spite of the fact that the rear bars were set up atleast 1 spline inboard and 1-2 outboard. (so you could take 6 guys and 800lbs of corn down the forementioned hill. ) In miles, balljoints probably lasted less than 200 miles. The first incarnation was retired after about 12 years because the engine/transmission mount horns shattered again after shattering and being welded and braced some years prior. The second is on someone elses ranch now.

 

[MABurns]

M1



M1IP



M1A1



M1A2



M1A2SEP



These are all versions of the best tank in the world. The Abrams tank pushes 72 tons and in 14 years I have only seen a handful of broken torsion bars.



I would much rather argue about the Duramax.



Oh by the way the V903 cummins engine in the M2 Bradely is a 600 HP 1850 Ft lb turbo charged V8. And guess what, it's aluminum alloy head does just fine.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by MABurns

... Oh by the way the V903 cummins engine in the M2 Bradely is a 600 HP 1850 Ft lb turbo charged V8. And guess what, it's aluminum alloy head does just fine.

For that matter, the aluminium alloy wheels (and other parts) on my Schwinn LeTour 10-speed bike have held up very nicely all these 27 years. The steel annealed crank shaft, OTOH, *always* separates and squeaks. And I was never very easy on that bike.



As to torsion bars, someone once described them as straight coil springs. Don't coils get their spring from twisting, rather than bending? If so, we should see a lot of broken coil springs, if it's the twisting and 'pre-loading' that cause torsion bars to fail. If coils only bend and don't twist, why are all coils springs (that I've seen) made of round material instead of flat?



Inquiring minds want to know!



Fest3er

 

[fj40charles]

I've done my share of hard core 4 wheeling and I can tell you the IFS is not as strong as a straight axle. If you don't believe me, go check out some of the vehicles that particpate in

Top Truck Challenge or ARCA (American Rock Crawlers Association)

Rock crawling championships. Most, if not all, are using a straight axle either with leaf springs or custom 4 or 5 link suspension. I don't know what the Avalanche Engineering's Assasin or the Sniper uses, but they both have straight axles.



Perhaps my definition of "hard core" offroad is different than many others.



My 2 pesos. .



Charles

 

[BK]

As far as the M1A1, the torsion bars arent slung under it like a nerf bar. Plus lets compare dia. of these bars, # of bars and how the load is distributed through the suspension.

Frankly I don't know the count and dia, but physics is physics..... I'm sure it's not an apples to apples comparison. Even the $$$ class of each vehicle speaks of it's self (NRE and RE).



80% of 4 wheels vehicle's weight is distributed to the two front wheels during braking. The M1A1 is a tracked vehicle with a computer control suspension system to constantly control weight distribution to help steady the platform for better accuracy when firing when on the move. GM Vs M1A1 GDLS suspension technology is a raisin Vs atomic bomb comparision, not apples to apples... GDLS holds patents for vehicle suspension technology that people haven't even hear of, and you wont.



And yes there are flat coil springs of all different size.

In fact I've seen coils that are at some point flat and in the middle round... I can only assume it's for progression of spring rate and or more room for deflection.



And yes coil springs are used via expansion and contraction of the coil with a minor twist section per turn of the material, they can be made progressive. Where torsion bars get their spring action from one long hard twist, ever pre load one?





I never new what was in the Bradely, if I still had my fingers in UDLS, I could find out the low down on how the head is treating them. Maybe we should support the war effort and donate our beer cans to UDLS for the heads on their engines instead of GM. Again, design comprimises, doesn't mean the engine is as strong as it could be. Maybe if they went with a iron head the cooling system could be a bit smaller, or there'd be a bit more room before head melt down... . but since they've saved weight in the head, lost a bit in the cooling system, maybe there was enough weight savings that they could add more armor protection. Something gives somewhere to gain something somewhere else.

 

[MCummings]

^^I like that post... .



Good Job BK.



MerrickNJr

 

[MABurns]

Little bit of knowledge

BK



The Abrams tank does not have a computer controled suspension system. Not sure who fed you that line. But I do know. I have been in the Army on the M1 tank for 15 years. I have seen the this tank, on the assembly line in Lima OH and torn down to the bare hull. It doesn't need a steady firing platform. It has a cant sensor that detirmines the angle of the hull, but the tank can hit a moving target while moving on any angle. It has a stabilized gun that moves independently of the tank. And as a matter of fact GDLS doesn't own a single patent on the M1's suspension. I am sure you will be pleased to know that Chrysler owns the patent on the torsion bar/rotary shock housing.

Stick to what you think you know. I am not an expert on aluminum vs steal heads but I know quite a bit more than you do on tanks.



I agree drink a beer and donate the recycling proceeds to the war effort. GM doesn't need it.

 

[BK]

... ...

"And as a matter of fact GDLS doesn't own a single patent on the M1's suspension. I am sure you will be pleased to know that Chrysler owns the patent on the torsion bar/rotary shock housing. "

... ... ... .



I didnt say the owned a patent or patents on that suspension, but I thought they had a lot more todo with it than DC did.

I know there are a bunch that they do own. GDLS's strengths are in chassis, metals(cabs-cabins) and suspensions, at least at the folks in the design facility I worked with where they did entire platform design .



I'm aware of the stabilized gun platform. . but still from my thoughts... I'm still left with the impression of an active controlled suspension on the M1xx

The "line" would come from my memory from my time spent at GDLS... but being 3-4 years ago I am not sure than what suspension platform I'm confusing it with. M1 was not the program I was there for, but being a fanatic of all things powerfull there was a lot of shop talk besides the work I was there for.



Got a few cans for the heads tonight... .

 

[HDH]

Originally posted by MABurns

I suppose there were some teamsters out there (I mean the actual horse teamsters) that thought those horseless carriages would never replace the horse and wagon. Wait until next year when Peterbuilt and Kenworth come out with their independent front suspensions. Then what will we do. Put wooden wheels on instead of rubber tires. Live Axle does not = HD.

Those Trucks you mention are not 4WD! I want a Real Truck, Not some Rendetion of what a Soccer Mom wants.

Live Straight Axle's are the Only way to go.

While its true that IFS and IRS are great for High Speed runs across the desert, They are No good for Articulation on the Rocks and in Keeping all 4's planted on the ground.



Those great big Mining Trucks dont have IFS or IRS, I wonder why?.



IFS or IRS is Fine for a 1/2 ton 4x4, But not for a anything above that.

Doug.

 

[HDH]

Originally posted by fj40charles

I've done my share of hard core 4 wheeling and I can tell you the IFS is not as strong as a straight axle. If you don't believe me, go check out some of the vehicles that particpate in

Top Truck Challenge or ARCA (American Rock Crawlers Association)

Rock crawling championships. Most, if not all, are using a straight axle either with leaf springs or custom 4 or 5 link suspension. I don't know what the Avalanche Engineering's Assasin or the Sniper uses, but they both have straight axles.



Perhaps my definition of "hard core" offroad is different than many others.



My 2 pesos. .



Charles

Well said!

Doug.

 

[JoeyD]

I agree that hard core 4 wheeling a solid axle is best. Unless you had deeeep pockets to have a long travel IFS made which most do not. But How many on this board take there trucks hard core off road. Probably none. I have had my truck in plenty of trails were I should not take a new truck but it did it. As far as travel is concerned the front springs are so stiff on any new heavy duty truck that they don't flex much anyway. In most instances it comes down to what you perfer as both will do the job. My truck for example drives and tows and even gets a 8'fisher plow on it in the winter with a dual 5/8 cutting edge and it does the job. Origon front end parts.

 

[HDH]

Originally posted by jdecampo

I agree that hard core 4 wheeling a solid axle is best. Unless you had deeeep pockets to have a long travel IFS made which most do not. But How many on this board take there trucks hard core off road. Probably none. I have had my truck in plenty of trails were I should not take a new truck but it did it. As far as travel is concerned the front springs are so stiff on any new heavy duty truck that they don't flex much anyway. In most instances it comes down to what you perfer as both will do the job. My truck for example drives and tows and even gets a 8'fisher plow on it in the winter with a dual 5/8 cutting edge and it does the job. Origon front end parts.

When I go OffRoad I Disconnect My Sway Bar on my Truck or Jeep. The Truck can Handle the street without a swaybar, The Cherokee Can not.

As a Matter of fact, I had the sway bar completely off the truck for around a year before I put it back on.



I Never see Any IFS Truck/SUV at Tellico, Wonder Why?

Ever been on the Rubicon or the Dusey Ershim Trails?

Ever been to Moab?.

If so, Ever been on Steel Bender, Poison Spider Mesa Or Golden Spike Trails?

Ever been on Pucker pass? after a wash out? A Lifted IFS Ford F150 was behind me, And could not finish the trail, Due to no Articulation.

RTI Will Always Tell the Truth. IFS Flunks the RTI Test All the time!



The only place I see lifted IFS Truck/SUV's is on the road!. And I lump them into the Riceboy Crowd, All Show and No Go



IFS is for Soccer Moms.

Doug.

 

[JoeyD]

I agree about the hard core trails. But in my last couple of issues of 4 wheeler books they drove the new Jeep Liberty and the new H2, both have IFS, on some of the trails you listed. These were showroom stock with out a lift so it can be done. They have some good pictures of these trucks on trails. I would not drive my ride over them. Like I said for most the hard core trail does not apply.

 

[fj40charles]

I don't want to rain on anyone's IFS parade..... BUT... . A Jeep Liberty does not count as a "real" 4 wheel drive in my book. Most of the stuff I've gone on (Moab's Pritchett's Canyon, Tellico's Lower #2, helicopter pad, guardrail, shool bus hill, peckerwood connector. Poteau's axle breaker, TV cable, 8 seconds, panel wagon, Clayton's Jim and Juanita trail and 3 stage) cannot be done without locking differntials.



I'm getting ready to build another Toyota FJ40 trail rig right now and I'm in the process of getting some Reverse Cut Dana 60 axles built for both axles. I'll be running 39. 5" Super Swamper Boggers. The stuff I will do and have/done are not for

what I call "mall terrian vehicles" or "parking lot pretenders. "



A Jeep Liberty is a poser and probably will never see any offroad

action like stuff we're talking about.



Charles

 

[HDH]

I only saw where they Tested the H2, They didnt say if they took over the Easy Bypass routes or Not, I doubt they took it thru the sluce box or anything that hard.

The H2 is a Soccer Moblie.



I only know the Liberty was tested in the Cal desert, I know it wasn't in Truckhaven, I think it was on flat level ground.

The Liberty is a Soccer Mobile.



And Yes I know it can Be done. I. E. I can drive a 68 Karmangia over the Rubicon if i wanted to bash every panel on it. And use a Winch all the Time to drag it over boulders and thru Lakes/swamps.



I would rather have all fours planted on the ground at all times than one in the air all the time.



On the Dusy Ershim Trail, There are no Easy Bypass Routes for any Obsticle. Thats why I think its the Hardest trail. Plus its a couple of days long. I took a completely stock 1989 cherokee on the Dusy Ershim Trail, with no Problem except on Thompson Hill.



I would not even want to try a Hummer on that trail,Because in 1991 I drove across it in a 1978 GMC Jimmy.



I Truely believe, the only reason there is IFS on 4x4 1/2 ton Pickup's, is because of the CAFE Standards did away with the American Station Wagon. Woman and Large Familys started buying Suburbans and Blazers for Soccer Mobiles,And Complained about the Ride Quality, Thus now you have a 4x4 2500 Suburban/Blazer/Tahoe that sits about as high as 1978 Chevy C10 2wd.

If you Havent Driven the Dusy, You Have not been Fourwheel'n.

Doug.

 

[JoeyD]

You guys are right about the Hard core stuff. But what advantage does it have for the 95% that don't do that.

 

[fj40charles]

I can see not having to change out the CV boots as another reason NOT to have an IFS front end. The straight axle will about last you forever and the only thing you might have to change will be the axle seals and the u-joint. The inner and outer axle shafts are pretty durable.



Charles

 

[JoeyD]

The CV boots are a easy to change out. Easier than an axle joint, I would think a axle joint would last longer but I base that on older trucks with manual hubs I have owned but who knows. I have 65k on mine now and alls good.

HDH, I have never been out west four wheeling but have read about the trails. I am sure they are harder than they look in the books. In the NOV issue of Four wheeler they take a bunch of Tacoma's stock included over to Moab. Hells revenge, Potato Salid Hill,Double Bump. Then they said they take the H2 on The Rubicon. I can't find the one on the Liberty. The picture make it look like a hard trail.

What do you guys think about the new 1/2 Ton ram's front end. Aluminum spindals and upper control arm. I would rather have an aluminum head than a aluminum suspension.

 

[redneckdr]

4 doors

BK:

i agree with you. the qc was just one of the reasons i bought a new ram, but definitely a reason. i didn't want the extra length of a crew cab, but wanted better access to the back seat. d@*n, that crew cab F250 is a BIG truck. i did look at it, after telling myself several years ago that i would NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER own a pford again, EVER! thank GOD, there were a lot of things about it that i didn't like.