Dura-Dud

[Lil' Dog]

IFS Vs Live

My brother had an 87 Chevy 10 4x4, beefed 12 bolt, 9" lift 33 10. 50's etc. etc... . And that live axle climbed over more terrain than any of those $5000 lifted IFS units. You see when you start hitting the hard bumps the front end of the IFS dives into the ground and you just plow dirt into the oil pan. . At least with the live axle your clearance is always 6" to the axle or diff. Not 6" at rest and -2" when the IFS dives into the ground.



Another point is that the lowest point on the HD's is right in the middle of the unit, genious Now when you pull over that tough fallen tree you can drag your IFS link points over, if you don't need a winch out. I could just image how much$$$ could be laid out to straighten your torsion bars.



This doesn't really matter for all the highway drivers that the HD was designed for. All the serious off-roaders have solid axles period... . at least around here.



But I digress.



J-eh

 

[MUDDY]

rubber boots

cv joints encased in rubber boots. bad idea for even easy 4 wheelin if there is a chance of sage brush or mud packing in by the boots and ripping them. also driving on the hiway in winter with snow and slush and slush packs up on the arms and frezes to the boots. years ago i had a toyota to run around in and spent many mornings having to lie under the rig with hammer and chisel removing the ice away from the boots so i wouldnt have to replace them because of tearing. ive replaced many boots and a few cv joints on the toy.



no more ifs for me. its just a big hassle to wory about the boots and the limited articulation will get you stuck. the ifs rigs are just good for dry graded dirt roads



as to the cad, i dont care much for this so i remidied the possible future problem with the 4x4 posi-lock



http://www.4x4posi-lok.com/



http://www.finishlinewest.com/posi_lock.htm



also gives me a 2wd lo option

 

[BK]

Lil' Dog & muddymess, totally agree... ...



I had a Bronco II with this stupid rear driveshaft that had like an enclosed "knuckle" instead of a rear UJ... it was "protected" by a rubber boot. The best thing the boot did was keep the sand and dust in to destroy the driveshaft's rear joint.



And on the FWD cars, every oil change, inspect all the stupid boots... if you dont catch a bad one... you'll be paying the local auto store for a 1/2 shaft... ...



I guess this should have been called the Dura-dud and HD-dud thread. The whole truck has come under fire... .

I orginally started it just because of the posting from a new owner of his very own Dura-dud.



I think Chevy has made some great looking "SUV's"(---- soccer mom transports ------ tricycle motor haulers ---- ankle biters cage----- Rug rat corral... and now the HD with it's open air rug rat transport box) but they've gotten out of this truck market that we all bought our Cummins/Dodge for. Reports are that the HD is ~2Klbs lighter than the Dodge... . ?? If soo where did it all go?? I've heard that a lot of it is in the sheetmetal... The beer can heads... . where else? Must be the IFS front end too... ??



Sorry, a bit delirious from lack of sleep...



Bob

 

[redneckdr]

hd

bob:

hope you got some sleep... ... ... . when i started reading your last post, i got concerned! i gather when you said HD, you meant the new "heavy duty" chubbies and geeeemcees. i thought you were including my two wheel transport also. i love my harley only slightly less than my goat. ya know, sad thing is most of those folks now driving the duraduds paid up to $5k more for their rides than a comparably equipped dodge. BUY A CTD, BOMB THE HECK OUT OF IT--THEN WIPE THE FLOOR WITH DURADUDS, AND POCKET THE $2-3k YOU SAVED!!! ( well 1-2, anyway)

 

[BK]

redneckdr,



no way would I -dis- a Harley... . sorry for the scare... ya meant "HD" for the Dura-dud SUV pickup... . kinda a contradicts it's self.

maybe I'd dis some rice burners,... . but it seems they're doing their homework with their new cruisers... HD woke up and took notice! Rode my buddies (either 1000 cc or 900 cc, dont remember, it was the biggest and newest last year) on/off road Yamaha bike... scared the life out of me, made the mistake of trying to ride it in his backyard (what seem to become a small back yard as it carried me off with out a struggle towards the fence, didnt expect the acceleration).

Seen that special on the V-Rod... nice -- but they never talked price. But I guess my likes are still in the old iron.



One day I will own one. . ,, make that two. My wife has made it known that she doesnt want the back set position. So it'll have to be his and hers... . I can go for that, seeing a gal ride a bike or drive a TRUCK... . gets my hormones going, what can I say.

All I can do is make it just a dream for now.



Bob

 

[HDH]

Originally posted by jdecampo

You guys are right about the Hard core stuff. But what advantage does it have for the 95% that don't do that.

95% of the people buying 4x4's dont need them, And most certainlly dont need a Low range in a 2 speed Transfercase.



95% of truck buyers could just get by with a Locked Rear Differential. Or an Allwheel drive system like GM has in the Astrovan.

 

[HDH]

Originally posted by jdecampo

The CV boots are a easy to change out. Easier than an axle joint, I would think a axle joint would last longer but I base that on older trucks with manual hubs I have owned but who knows. I have 65k on mine now and alls good.

HDH, I have never been out west four wheeling but have read about the trails. I am sure they are harder than they look in the books. In the NOV issue of Four wheeler they take a bunch of Tacoma's stock included over to Moab. Hells revenge, Potato Salid Hill,Double Bump. Then they said they take the H2 on The Rubicon. I can't find the one on the Liberty. The picture make it look like a hard trail.

What do you guys think about the new 1/2 Ton ram's front end. Aluminum spindals and upper control arm. I would rather have an aluminum head than a aluminum suspension.

I used to Have Toyota, I bought it Brand New in 1980. It was a 4x4 truck. Great little Truck, Low in Power.

Toyota Lost me when they went to IFS.



The New Ram1500 4x4 is a Soccer Mom's Truck.

The Upper A -arms have very little stress on them, Unlike Heads on a Diesel. The Upper A-arms are NOT exposed to constant expansion and contraction from heating and cooling like the Heads are.

I like the fact the Front diff of the Ram1500 is a Dana 44, So Gear changes are there, Unlike GM's Torrington style slip case front diff.

And at least since its a Soccer Mom's truck, They put Rack and Pinion Steering on it as well.



The Jeep Liberity is a Farse as well, The Cherokee was a Much Better 4x4. But for a Soccer moms car, Its Ok I guess. .



As far as Front Spindle axle u-joint Longevity goes. I have 180,000 on my 89 Jeep Cherokee now, And the U-joints are still fine. But who knows on the next trail?.

On my Cherokee, I have the 242 transfercase, So I Dont have the CAD System on the front, The Transfercase is a Fulltime unit. So the U-joints are spinning all the time. And have the full 180,000 miles on them



Any Locked 4x4 can run most of those trails, But like I said, I want my Suspension to work, I want it to Flex and walk over rocks,and ruts. It Does absolutely no good to have a Locked Diff with tires grabbing air,Keep the Rubber planted at all times.



I once saw a Lexus SUV try to run up a rutted snowy driveway in 4WD, Couldnt make it. I went up in 2WD, Why?. Because i had all Fours on the ground.



And Even though they call the rock in Moab Utah"Slickrock". It realy is'nt. Its More Like Sandpaper.

 

[BK]

I guess that puts me and a lot of other people I know in the 5%...

there's now way a 2x4 is gonna tow 3-7miles on powerded sand with no bottom... with 2Klbs of stuff in the bed and 8Klbs of trailer, up and over sand trails for anywhere from 3 - 7 miles..... and if you want to save your transmission (auto slush box) and keep the rpms up... you need low range. With the right tires for the truck (my 80 - solid axle - Toyota with 33x12 BFG MT's @ 18lbs of air) and aired down enough, not towing, I can get down most of the beach and trail on 2hi... . but not the 2500 stock... . I'm down to 9lbs of air in each tire on the truck and 20lbs of air in each trailer tire... . and 4x4 low is a must..... to "tread lightly".

 

[HDH]

Originally posted by BK

I guess that puts me and a lot of other people I know in the 5%...

there's now way a 2x4 is gonna tow 3-7miles on powerded sand with no bottom... with 2Klbs of stuff in the bed and 8Klbs of trailer, up and over sand trails for anywhere from 3 - 7 miles..... and if you want to save your transmission (auto slush box) and keep the rpms up... you need low range. With the right tires for the truck (my 80 - solid axle - Toyota with 33x12 BFG MT's @ 18lbs of air) and aired down enough, not towing, I can get down most of the beach and trail on 2hi... . but not the 2500 stock... . I'm down to 9lbs of air in each tire on the truck and 20lbs of air in each trailer tire... . and 4x4 low is a must..... to "tread lightly".

Yeah the Weight of the Cummins makes the Truck a Bit Front heavy.



But what I ment was that Most of the People Buying Chevys around here Dont use them for as a Truck. They Use them as Family Soccer team Haulers, Or StreetRod.



The Oil Companys, Ranchers and Farmers In Kern County Use Mostly all Cummins powered Rams Or Ford Powerstrokes for their Job. The Only Time a See a DuraStroke is with a Family in it Pulling a 2500lb Tent Trailer to the Lake.

IFS Need Not Apply to my needs.

Doug.

 

[JHansen]

I'm with HDH...

Solid axle or nothing for me..... My brother has a Dakota-probably a fine enough truck but the IFS excludes it from my want-to-own list. Same thing for the Durango-I'd much rather have a Grand Cherokee even though they're smaller just for the solid front end. I'll never own a new 1500 for the IFS reason. Crawled under one the other day (my brother is the parts manager for the dealership where I bought my truck) and I must say I'm really not impressed-way too much aluminum for my tastes. We won't even start on the rack and pinion steering ...



And I also own an '89 Cherokee-sounds like it's real close to yours. Mine's got close to 300000 kilometers on it (so a little over 180000 miles)-and it's also a Selec-Trac model so no CAD. It's still on its original wheel joints-as far as I know it's still running the original front driveshaft U-joints! Rear shaft joints are a different story-too much driveline angularity with my homebrewed lift. But we'll leave that for another day's discussions. I lifted it mainly to get some halfways-civilized sized rubber under it (31's right now) for snow capability-since I squeezed them under we haven't had any winter to speak of. Isn't that how it goes? Need to get some front tow hooks so I can run in next year's Jeep Jamboree with it I guess.



Jason

 

[MABurns]

The world is flat, the world is flat. I bet the space shuttle wouldn't fly with a cast iron engine. Join the 21st century, there are stronger better materials out there than cast iron.

Being out dated doesn't make it better, just out dated. I recall a lot of posts about the 24V being computer controled, and it being a sin to put a computer on the cummins. Lots of EZ, and Van AAChen converts out there huh... ... ... ... I am glad you all are not on the cutting edge of the engineering effort in Detroit. We all would be driving cars with leaf springs all around that have float carberators.

 

[Texas Diesel]

leaf springs and carburators? I would choose a float carb ( and NO emission junk any day over EFI ) I sure wish we had both... AND mechanical pumps for our Cummins, you cant improve on perfection However, some things were not made to go together.

 

[HDH]

Originally posted by MABurns

I am glad you all are not on the cutting edge of the engineering effort in Detroit. We all would be driving cars with leaf springs all around that have float carberators.

MABurns;

A Leaf sprung car Sucks at racing. And Carbs are Crappy for extreme Vehicle angles.

You Make the Asumption, that I dont like NEW things and NEW Idea's. I do Like New Ideas That Work as Advertised!



IFS equiped 4x4's Dont Work As Advertised.

Wasnt putting a Small Diesel Engine in a Pickup a New Idea?.

I waited for the 24v ISB to come out, I had a Chance for a 98. 4 12v QC 4x4 sitting on the dealers lot. But instead I ordered the Very Early 98. 5, No regrets.



I was Racing With Hilborn Fuel Injection When Others Out there Went with BIG Carbs.



Cant We Have a Choice In Life?. If You want IFS, Then Buy it, But Expect to be able to Follow Me into the Hills and Valleys and Offcamber Trails.

IFS Is Great For a 2wd Car,Truck,Van,Bus, and Riding Lawn Mowers.

But For the Life of Me I cant fiqure out is, Why In the World would you want to Limit the Ablitity of a 4WD Vehicle, A Vehicle that is supposed to take you Anywhere a man can walk.

IFS Is there for the mass's, Not for the People Who Want to Escape from the mass's.

There Is No Such Thing as a "do all" Vehicle, Some are trying to confuse that point. If you want a Sports car Like Truck, Put IFS on it!

And If a Solid Live Axle is So Bad, Then Why oh why Does Land rover and Unimog still use them?. These Are Highly Touted Vehicle Logo's.

By The Way, Land Rover Still uses the All Alum V-8 that they bought the Patent rights from in the Late Sixtys.

With Simple Physics Applied here, IFS Can Not Do What a Straight/live axle can do, And that is to Articulate or Teater-Toter.

The IFS Also Lose's in Ground Clearance, The IFS Allows the Vehicles frame to get much closer to the ground Than Solid axle does.

But Not Worry, Gents, Soon we will be without a need for such Vehicles anyway, Soon the Forest's will be All Locked up, And Only Available to Young People to Hike until their hearts are content, We will all be driving Fuelcell Power Cars and Truck, Perfectly Silent, And No need for a Clattering Diesel powered Mechanical A**hole that Belches out Ozone Depleteing smog.

doug.

the green meanies will win.

 

[HDH]

Re: I'm with HDH...

Originally posted by JHansen

Solid axle or nothing for me..... My brother has a Dakota-probably a fine enough truck but the IFS excludes it from my want-to-own list. Same thing for the Durango-I'd much rather have a Grand Cherokee even though they're smaller just for the solid front end. I'll never own a new 1500 for the IFS reason. Crawled under one the other day (my brother is the parts manager for the dealership where I bought my truck) and I must say I'm really not impressed-way too much aluminum for my tastes. We won't even start on the rack and pinion steering ...



And I also own an '89 Cherokee-sounds like it's real close to yours. Mine's got close to 300000 kilometers on it (so a little over 180000 miles)-and it's also a Selec-Trac model so no CAD. It's still on its original wheel joints-as far as I know it's still running the original front driveshaft U-joints! Rear shaft joints are a different story-too much driveline angularity with my homebrewed lift. But we'll leave that for another day's discussions. I lifted it mainly to get some halfways-civilized sized rubber under it (31's right now) for snow capability-since I squeezed them under we haven't had any winter to speak of. Isn't that how it goes? Need to get some front tow hooks so I can run in next year's Jeep Jamboree with it I guess.



Jason

Jason;

Yeah your Cherokee sound real close to mine, Mine Is a Laredo. And Has a 4. 5" lift on it with 31's also.

Have you Heard of www.rustysoffroad.com ? He's great to Deal with.

I have a Weak or sticky lifter everyonce in a while. I need to Fresh'n the Motor up a Little. Its a Good 4x, Much better than the Liberty, But we have been thru that already.

Doug.

 

[BK]

HDH (Dough),



I'm totally with ya.



I hated throttle body FI when it came out, but loved MPFI... others were praising the TBFI... and thought the MPFI was too much and not needed and praised the engineering of TBFI - "cutting edge"..... I argued with them about TBFI being nothing more than a floatless carb, junk (better than a carb yes but missing all the other benifits of FI when done right with multi point)... TBFI is an engineering comprimise just like IFS is on production vehicles. If your gonna do FI, do it right with MP... .



IFS Is is not being used to make a tougher truck or to make the travel longer as when IS technoloy is used on race buggies... it's being done soo the soccer moms will like the ride and buy the suitoo truck. . the same reason chebbies have more creature comfort. . to atracted their target buyer. . those who think they want a truck but would never buy one cause the dont like the way a real truck rides... . so the big three are making them more like cars and less like trucks... SUV's... . it's a matter of fact. Ask any of the big 3 marketing people... . IFS rides better than a live axle... yup... . it cheaper to manufacture... . yup... . but thats where the benifits end in a stock, detroit design mass production vehicle.



Just because it's IFS doesnt mean it's cutting edge of vehicle design... Ford's IS design for the Jeep lost to the Willy's live axle design... . not soo cutting edge even then. Because it's IFS and different makes it cutting edge???? Lets see... transverse leaf spring suspension. . it's used on the great American Road from the bowtie people... . the Corvette... most of the 1st suspensions on the 1st horseless carriages were transverse leaf springs I believe. And the Corvette's suspension is praised to be so radical and great and cutting edge... ... . but its just a copy from the late 1800's. The chevy truck's IFS is nothing but a copy of the years of Dodge torsion bar suspensions and years of A frames in the front of cars... whats so cutting edge about that? It seems there's a bowtie brain washing being done somehow.



Want to take a look at cutting edge, get under some of the "truggies" that are being designed and raced now.

Want cutting edge, get into GDLS's pants... wait till the same people that review the 1st Hummers get to review it's replacement. What some great designs that can be seen now, take a look at the racing monster trucks.

They don't do cutting edge designs on the things we buy on the lot, cant afford to... real cutting edge is what we refer to as "bleeding edge"... cause you bleed money making it happen.

What we buy on the lot is repackaged and re-warmed for a target market... each having its place for each different customer.



I'm sure thats why Dodge went for coils,,, the nature of coils provide a better ride than leaf springs... . but Dodge could keep the solid front axle. I'd much rather suffer in the "ride" quality and have my leaf springs up front. But yes, I'll keep my 24V Cummins. Just think with real front leaf springs... no track bars to worry about.



Oh well you can tell I still havent gotten any real sleep...



Off to try and get some again tonight.



Bob

 

[MABurns]

HDH



Wasnt putting a Small Diesel Engine in a Pickup a New Idea?.



If your talking about Dodge in 1989 you'll have to go back a little farther. Toyota, Nissan among others have been putting diesel engines in their trucks since they started making trucks. Almost all trucks in Europe, Central America, and Africa are diesels.

( I also must point out that the same trucks have been crew cabs, when here in the US you had to get a one ton dually to get a crew cab before 1998)



4 cyl ISB, V6 Powerstroke and a V6 GM diesel will all be available in the next 3-4 years. We are only scratching the surface of diesel applications.

 

[HDH]

Originally posted by MABurns
HDH

Wasnt putting a Small Diesel Engine in a Pickup a New Idea?.

If your talking about Dodge in 1989 you'll have to go back a little farther. Toyota, Nissan among others have been putting diesel engines in their trucks since they started making trucks.

Uh, No, I was Talking about the 5. 7 Gm Diesel Offered in the Late70's to early 80's by GM. Before Toyota and Nissan (in the USA).

GM, Had a Good Idea then, But didnt put much Engineering into it.

If you like GM's IFS So Much, Why Do you have a Dodge?, Just asking?
Doug.
IFS Has little to No Droop!

 

[HDH]

Originally posted by BK
HDH (Dough),

I'm totally with ya.

I hated throttle body FI when it came out, but loved MPFI... others were praising the TBFI... and thought the MPFI was too much and not needed and praised the engineering of TBFI - "cutting edge"..... I argued with them about TBFI being nothing more than a floatless carb, junk (better than a carb yes but missing all the other benifits of FI when done right with multi point)... TBFI is an engineering comprimise just like IFS is on production vehicles. If your gonna do FI, do it right with MP... .

IFS Is is not being used to make a tougher truck or to make the travel longer as when IS technoloy is used on race buggies... it's being done soo the soccer moms will like the ride and buy the suitoo truck. . the same reason chebbies have more creature comfort. . to atracted their target buyer. . those who think they want a truck but would never buy one cause the dont like the way a real truck rides... . so the big three are making them more like cars and less like trucks... SUV's... . it's a matter of fact. Ask any of the big 3 marketing people... . IFS rides better than a live axle... yup... . it cheaper to manufacture... . yup... . but thats where the benifits end in a stock, detroit design mass production vehicle.

Just because it's IFS doesnt mean it's cutting edge of vehicle design... Ford's IS design for the Jeep lost to the Willy's live axle design... . not soo cutting edge even then. Because it's IFS and different makes it cutting edge???? Lets see... transverse leaf spring suspension. . it's used on the great American Road from the bowtie people... . the Corvette... most of the 1st suspensions on the 1st horseless carriages were transverse leaf springs I believe. And the Corvette's suspension is praised to be so radical and great and cutting edge... ... . but its just a copy from the late 1800's. The chevy truck's IFS is nothing but a copy of the years of Dodge torsion bar suspensions and years of A frames in the front of cars... whats so cutting edge about that? It seems there's a bowtie brain washing being done somehow.

Want to take a look at cutting edge, get under some of the "truggies" that are being designed and raced now.
Want cutting edge, get into GDLS's pants... wait till the same people that review the 1st Hummers get to review it's replacement. What some great designs that can be seen now, take a look at the racing monster trucks.
They don't do cutting edge designs on the things we buy on the lot, cant afford to... real cutting edge is what we refer to as "bleeding edge"... cause you bleed money making it happen.
What we buy on the lot is repackaged and re-warmed for a target market... each having its place for each different customer.

I'm sure thats why Dodge went for coils,,, the nature of coils provide a better ride than leaf springs... . but Dodge could keep the solid front axle. I'd much rather suffer in the "ride" quality and have my leaf springs up front. But yes, I'll keep my 24V Cummins. Just think with real front leaf springs... no track bars to worry about.

Oh well you can tell I still havent gotten any real sleep...

Off to try and get some again tonight.

Bob

BK, I see you are from the school as I am,I. E. I want a Real Truck!.
I agree with your post, It Shows that Someone who owns a Truck that when they purchased it, They Considerd the Whole Pkg as a Truck.
When I bought My Truck, I Looked at the Whole Pkg, Because I plan on Keeping until the day I die. The Cummins Power was a Big Selling Point, But so was the Suspension and Drivetrain, The Creature Comforts were Last in line.
I will keep the Jeep Cherokee for a Long time or until I roll it, which ever comes first!. LOL!
MPFI is the Greatest thing they could have to the Gasser, I Have always said that.

Something to Ponder Guys,
What would have happened if the instead of the "Highly Cutting Edge Techology Built,5/8" Thick Hull" USS Cole getting Attacked by the Terrorist Boat.
The Old School Cold Riveted Boiler stoken 21" Thick Hull USS New Jersey was in the USS Cole's Place?.
Probably Just have to Scrape the Grease spot off and Repaint with Haze Grey. LOL!!

Also,
Someone Said that GM Is The Largest Auto Company,
That May Be True.
But Walmart is the Largest Retailer,And That doesnt mean I am Able to by an heirloom Or something High Quality from them.
Doug.

 

[MABurns]

I agree Total Package is the ultimate answer.

I do have two IFS vehicles, and I also have a live axle Ram 2500.



Most people that buy, and again you can't please everybody, do not buy a 3/4 ton, QC long bed pickup for flex, articulation, RTI or to drive it on the Rubicon. If I where I wouldn't be in a 7000 pound crew cab either.



My point has always been (like yours) sell me the best vehicle for what I use it for. Not bashing the masses (somehow IFS= soccer moms) .

I (and business) own 4 CTDs and I now own a Duramax. I guess my final answer is that If I go out to the driveway I don't get in the Dodge anymore. I get in the Chevy. Stock versus stock their is no comparison.



I just don't subscribe to the pry it from my cold dead fingers mentality.

 

[Shovelhead]

IFS not for off-road?

Have you looked under a Hummer lately?

Independant suspension front, and rear.

I realize that the price is WAY out-of-reach for most of us.

BTW Wifey's '95 Toyota Landcruiser has a solid front axle also.

(of course the only off-roading she encounters is driving through my grass in the back yard 'cuz she's too lazy to back out of the driveway ) Did I say that?