Competition Duramax engine issues

[fest3er]

... There is a point of power level that the pistons and other parts for that matter simply can't handle. ...

This is why some folks insist that you can't look at any one part when building an engine; you have to look at the system as a whole. This goes for any engine, regardless of race, creed, gender or ethnicity. For that matter, the entire vehicle has to be viewed as a system. To attain reliable levels of relative maximum performance, all the components have to be examined and tested to ensure they will work together without failure. If your funds do not allow for extensive lab testing, you're limited to waiting to observe the appearance of unexpected sub-optimal performance. ... Oh, sorry. I mean, you're stuck with seeing what breaks next, then figuring out whether the system was out of whack or the part was weak or wore out.



Oops. I didn't mean to bring serious conversation to the banter forum. I'll try not to let it happen again.

 

[Yo Hoot]

The combustion chamber is a system in itself. Every aspect of it has effect on every other aspect of the power process within the cylinder. One miscalculation without respecting the other parameters can be disastrous.



I don't pretend to understand any of it except, being from the aerospace industry I do know they use wind tunnels to verify and optimize designs because software can't do it alone. There are years of experience and data being brought to bare in the design of the combustion chamber and the intake exhaust injection designs.



Very few of us have anywhere close to the knowledge required to manipulate these parameters with competence. When I use the word parameters I mean both physical and computational with respect to electronic controls.



The majority of us leave that stuff to the experts. Than we suck off them, often for a fee when we purchase their products.



Stuff like EFI Live is scary to me. It's one thing to load engineered programs that have been tested. It's a whole nother thing to play with parameters that can blow your motor up just to see "what will this do"

 

[MTomac]

This is why some folks insist that you can't look at any one part when building an engine; you have to look at the system as a whole. This goes for any engine, regardless of race, creed, gender or ethnicity. For that matter, the entire vehicle has to be viewed as a system. To attain reliable levels of relative maximum performance, all the components have to be examined and tested to ensure they will work together without failure. If your funds do not allow for extensive lab testing, you're limited to waiting to observe the appearance of unexpected sub-optimal performance. ... Oh, sorry. I mean, you're stuck with seeing what breaks next, then figuring out whether the system was out of whack or the part was weak or wore out.



Oops. I didn't mean to bring serious conversation to the banter forum. I'll try not to let it happen again.

That is exacly what happened on the two broken Duramaxes that are being discussed on the Diesel Place. Both owners just threw money at the motor and bought the best this and the biggest that and had the motor put together. Another thing that doesn't like to be mentioned is the same engine builder built both engines. Worse yet he has a history of bad luck when it comes to building motors.

 

[GRotman]

That is exacly what happened on the two broken Duramaxes that are being discussed on the Diesel Place. Both owners just threw money at the motor and bought the best this and the biggest that and had the motor put together. Another thing that doesn't like to be mentioned is the same engine builder built both engines. Worse yet he has a history of bad luck when it comes to building motors.

BUt I bet that engine builder knows which way the rod bearings go in a Duramax

 

[nwpadmax]

JFaulkner and Fest3r hit the nail on the head, as usual.



Hoot, in a moment of lucidity, is also correct. EFILive gives you all the rope you need to hang yourself with.



The problem I'm seeing there is, folks are (with good intentions) programming stuff and making big horsepower. Can't fault the urge. But what I also see, is that few people are progressing in an engineering manner where you change, test, verify the results, and move on to the next step. There are a few that can do it, but the vast majority don't. And these guys are running on borrowed time, in my opinion. Time will tell if I'm wrong.



I have EFILive but am a bit nervous about going nuts with it. For now, it is a spectacular data logging tool. I would like to play with some tunes, but I don't know if I have the time to give it the attention it requires.



Mike's statement above is accurate as to the origin of the failed engines. However, since I don't have an engine built there, I'm not going to throw any more fuel on the fire.



In all seriousness, and I have said this before, the strength of the 5. 9 CTD has allowed people to push far beyond its intended output. That motor certainly lets people get away with a lot more. And you don't have to be a NASA engineer to do it. It would appear that the Dmax is going to require a lot more attention to detail, but we really don't know because the 2 failed HiPo Dmaxes aren't a clear guide to go by. The water is muddy.



Even so, the 1200 HP+ CTD motors aren't even 75% reliable, and they scatter 'em often. Is it a bad design? Heck no. A lot of times, it's some other simple component failure that runs the train off the tracks. Every engine has that issue. Winston Cup cars (yeah, I hate "Nextel Cup") with millions of dollars of R&D blow up on a regular basis.



The Dmax certainly has the potential to surpass 700 HP. One very talented guy is building one for dragging this summer, and we'll see how it runs. We also look to see what Kyle Michael can do at the pulls.



From a competition standpoint, I'm really curious to see what can be done with your new 6. 7. If someone develops the code or computer required to make that thing spin like a 12V, look the heck out. That thing could be a monster.

 

[nwpadmax]

Will we be seeing the Dmax in more industrial applications in the future? To me that's a sign of an industrial diesel. I was hoping the Dmax would have matured to that level. Unfortunately it and the Ford offerings don't seem to be headed that direction.



Why would Ford use Cummins in the new med duties?

Something that gets missed almost EVERY TIME in theories like yours above, is cost.



Now I'm not saying that's the case, but it's just outlandish thinking that Ford got a warm fuzzy just hearing the name Cummins. Sure, they looked at reliability over the long haul. How much of a factor it was, we'll never know, and we shouldn't make nutty assumptions and assume it's what we think.



Price, lead time, how many in inventory, warranty levels, weight, length, emissions, all that stuff has to be figured in. It's all in how it's packaged.



It always kills me when Ford beats the F-series as the "number one selling truck of all time" (or whatever)... . and then uses the advertising Jedi mind trick to get people to think it must be the best thing since sliced bread. It isn't. Which sells more - corn flakes or foofoo 100% all natural, all organic, all-low-bad-stuff, all non-sweatshop, all non-animal-harming, all-rain-forest-protecting, Granola? Of course the cornflakes. But they suck, and everyone knows it.



Now, here's a serious question, how's the 7. 8 Dmax doing? That's the industrial Dmax. I haven't heard a thing. Be neat to see one in a mod class puller truck, eh?

 

[Yo Hoot]

Now, here's a serious question, how's the 7. 8 Dmax doing? That's the industrial Dmax. I haven't heard a thing. Be neat to see one in a mod class puller truck, eh?

Yea I HATE Ford's advertising. I think it belittles it's target audience.



The 7. 8 Dmax. . It's really not at all related to the GM/Isuzu Dmax. I have no idea how it's doing. Who is using it? I think it's lack of popularity for whatever reason keeps it out of the limelight.



We know engines in heavy duty trucks/tractors aren't typically associated with the truck brands. You can choose between the biggies.



I just find it peculiar that Ford is using the new 6. 7L Cummins, the same basic one Dodge uses in our pickups, in it's med duty line. I agree there's more to it and cost is most likely the key reason. Not that the Cummins is cheap but the high tech wonder 6. 4 International Twin Turbo is probably a bad bet.



I think the 6. 6 Dmax and the new PSD's are falling out of favor in the med duty world for one of the reasons I dis them... . expensive, expensive and the power isn't where they want it. Not to mention they can't afford friggin downtime and warranty costs.



Aren't the med duty Dmax owners crying all the time?



I am seeing more and more Dmax med duty ambulances around here. That's old Ford 7. 3PSD territory.

 

[banshee]

It always kills me when Ford beats the F-series as the "number one selling truck of all time" (or whatever)... . and then uses the advertising Jedi mind trick to get people to think it must be the best thing since sliced bread. It isn't. Which sells more - corn flakes or foofoo 100% all natural, all organic, all-low-bad-stuff, all non-sweatshop, all non-animal-harming, all-rain-forest-protecting, Granola? Of course the cornflakes. But they suck, and everyone knows it.

McDonalds sells the most hamburgers, and Wal-Mart is the largest retail store in the universe

 

[John_P]

nwpadmax:



Good points about the Ford PSD! I agree with you. I just love the new ad where that black 2006-2007 Ford 6. 0 PSD Dually pulls that stuck trailer out from under a bridge,... ... ... ... ... ... IN REVERSE!!! Big Deal!! Sad thing is, some people will actually believe that.



Ford is STILL trying to buy back all those JUNK 2003-2004's which had more problems than you could shake a stick at! I remember reading that there were over 12,000 consumer complaints on those year engines, over 77 TSB's and one heck of a pile of lawsuits against Ford by owners of those trucks!



Now they are getting ready to release the new twin turbo 6. 4 sometime next year! WOW!! I can't wait to see how many problems that thing has.



--------

John_P

 

[nwpadmax]

Well, just to clarify, I wasn't picking on Ford specifically, but their advertising makes them an easy target.



Why none of them have diesel-specific highlight commercials, I'll never know. The 5. 9 CTD was/is one of the greatest pickup diesels of all time. Why there's not 30-second spots running on just the CTD in the Ram, I'll never know. Same for Chevy. About all the press the diesels get is "the most powerful diesel in its class. " BFD!



I tellya what, there would be some jaw-dropping diesel ads out there if I was king for a day. I'd morph a street Ram into Erik Stacey's truck and back again... . LOL! ARR ARR ARRRRRR!



(and the fine print at the bottom would say, "professional driver on a closed course. Do not attempt... . UNLESS YOU WANNA GROW A PAIR AND KICK SOME *****" :-laf



Maybe the ad agencies are run by wimmin?

 

[Highfinance97]

I tellya what, there would be some jaw-dropping diesel ads out there if I was king for a day. ARR ARR ARRRRRR!

<a href="http://imageshack.us">#ad
</a>





Michael

 

[nwpadmax]

Busted Dmaxes to the Wizard of Oz in one thread. I can hear Pink Floyd playing now...



I like you guys. :-laf

 

[nwpadmax]

Yeah, it's going to get interesting with the new engines coming out.



I think some folks are being dismissive of the 6. 4TT because of the 6. 0's issues. I could be wrong, but there could be some extra incentive there to make up for the past, so who knows, it could be killer. GM went from the 6. 5 to the Dmax and sure turned things around.



Like if I were Ford's F-series product manager, I would say this to all the engineers and designers:



"I'm not here to scare anybody, but this engine better run like a house on fire, or I will summarily fire every single one of you. "



They need some good old barbarian Theory X management over there for a little while.

 

[Yo Hoot]

According to the latest Ford 2008 documents...



"Cabs may require removal to allow R&R of the

diesel engine. Wire harnesses and other aftermarket

modifications should be designed so the

cab can be removed for engine removal and

installation. "



HERE is some good reading.

 

[John_P]

aseigworth:



Like you, I feel that I will always be a diehard Mopar guy too! Having the Cummins Engine in the Dodge helps alot too!



I really hope you are right about the new 6. 4 PSD Engine! The people I feel sorry for are the owners of the Ford F-250-F-450 Diesel Trucks who have had to endure the multitude of problems that 6. 0 has had! I have three friends here locally who have literally "been through h*** with Ford and their Ford dealers on their trucks and the problems they are having are serious.

I feel that when you pay $40,000+ for a truck it should give you some good service and the manafacturer should back up any big problems you have with it! Time will tell on how the new 6. 4 holds up and all but I sincerely hope that Ford has done the right R&D and thorough testing like you said so anyone who does buy the new truck/engine can have some good trouble free service from their vehicle.



--------

John_P

 

[Burner]

Sooooo, what's the question here? I don't think that any of these motors were designed for 'Competition Diesel Events' or the like. I think the 5. 9 was an AGG motor FIRST and Dodge wanted to try something new, as usual. I've always been a GM kind'a fella but I know that Dodge generally makes it first or has in the past. Dodge got lucky with the 5. 9 years ago, period. GM and Ford tried their hand with scheitty Diesels, both were burned. Dodge kept the 5. 9, GM meet emissions and Ford kicked tail in the consumer market with the 7. 3 PowerStroke. ... ... This is the meat of where "reliable" starts. Dodge built a truck that caved in before the engine even thought about it, just like the Iszuz (GM) pup did. GM built a nice truck but pulling real weight was a joke and the motor had maybe 250k in it. Ford balanced the book pretty well making a truck and engine that could last past 300k. ... ... ... . Now comes the Duramax meeting emissions, kicking everyone's tail in HP and TQ, delivering a truck that could last past 400k and it could tote a LOAD!





... ... ... . My point is, GM built one hell of a truck and damm good motor. They want to make trucks that last but stuff that wears out @ 300-450k makes better business sense.



Sure, the block "had" some thin spots..... the pistons, wristpins and rods "had" been a weee bit thin. I believe that's in the past tense.



I think people forget that they are on their own when Propane (Hoot), Nos, Water/meth or programmers come into play. These engines do have some durability but they are not stupid proof.





The 'problem' is right here in this thread... ..... duration between the pistons TDC, piston/wristpin thickness, material and stupid power. I think if you removed the STOOOPID power the trucks would last quite a while.





... ... ... You want a Dmax that's wicked? Get rid of the timming chain(that's a Strange thing ), sleeve the block, get better pistons/cam, get better rods and make it flow a little different. After that it's just a matter of who's trans, Turbo and cooler you want to use... or not.





... ... ... . I know this is ram shackled together, I'll clean it up later. :-laf

 

[nwpadmax]

Burner, you goof! :-laf



There's no timing chain in a Dmax!



Geeminy.



And anywho, this is the Competition section. Stoopid power is the only thing of interest here

 

[fest3er]

... So, at 7710 rpm, Jeremy's truck went into "pre-rebuild self-cleaning mode. "



:-laf

"Pre-maintenance auto-disassembly"?

 

[Yo Hoot]

My take on the sitiation today is Ford still has a great truck since they came up with the SuperDuty. The 7. 3 was a great engine. The auto trannies behind them weren't very reliable though. Ford is in trouble with problems... big time. They are losing customers everyday as word spreads... . yes we know the issues but it takes a while for the numskulls out there to find out what we all knew for years now.



GM... well yea they have a real nice truck. Awsome interior. It fits a lot of peoples behinds who insist on comfort and quality. Forget me personally and my personal experiences. I look at all of the friends of mine that had/have Dmaxes. All have sold and replaced them and many of them had the typical injector problems. I can't see spending all that extra money on a diesel and not trusting it to do 100,000 without having the thing screwed around with. Too many changes also through the years. OK it's a good competition diesel. It's proving itself it can pull and drag. Competiton engines are always getting worked on so you can't judge a worked engine for reliability. The piston/block issue may be the threshold being reached. If the pistons can't be designed to hold up there might not be much more power coming out of them.



The Dodge... Dodge has much improved the truck. Just like the others, the old designs are just that. The newer designs are holding up well. All the bs about the truck falling apart around the engine. Most of it is BS in recent times. I like being able to put real tires on my 4x4. . I like the straight axle. No it's not the greatest dragracing configuration. I didn't really ever want a dragster. I like the Dodge... and the Fords for their loyalty to the TRUCK. DOdge puts a diesel in that's reliable and pulls non stop without overheating.



Finally... when it comes down to it there is no competition for the Cummins when it comes to pure bread diesel. Shoot when Ford gets into their medium duty lines, what engine do they offer? The same engines that are in our Dodge pickups. Why wouldn't Ford put a PSD in them? Same with GM. they put a detuned Dmax in a 4500 and it's a slug. Above that and out goes the Dmax and in goes the CAT.





How many years will they be saying Cummins has been around a lot longer? A lot of years because the competion keeps changing their engines.

 

[DieselTweaker]

In the software world, they call them "unexpected features. "



So, at 7710 rpm, Jeremy's truck went into "pre-rebuild self-cleaning mode. "



:-laf

Actually Alot was learned from that, looking at the parts at the shop, It's pretty amazing what factory parts will withstand.



Zach