Eaton 10 Speed....

[Carl Cook]

There is an aftermarket kit for mounting an air compressor ontop the alternator, you put a differnt pully on the alt, an it runs a belt for the compressor. the industrial b-series run the cummins air compressor off the gear housing. where you would have your vaccum pump and ps pump on the dodge, you have the compressor and hydraulic pump.



Ah air brakes. Well SRath, i must disagree with you here. there are many more advantages to air brakes over hydraulic brakes, and dropping and hookings trailers is by far NOT the only reasons class 8 tractors have air brakes. if that were the case, why do strait trucks, rollbacks, coach buses, etc, use air brakes. it all boils down to one main factor, SAFETY. air brakes are much more reliable than hydraulic brakes in the event of a failure. for example the park brake system, for those not familiar with a spring brake chamber, the chamber has two seprate halves, one half contains the coil spring, that has enough force to litterally take off a mans head, the other half is just an empty chamber with a diaphram. when you mash the valve in the dash and release the brakes, air is applied to the spring side, the psi on the diapram overcomes the spring pressure and compresses it, therefor removing load from the slack adjuster and allowing the S-Cam to rotate back and the shoes to pull away from the drums. when the service brake (foot pedal) is applied, air is sent to the other half of the chamber using air against the diaphram to push the rod connected to the slack adjuster and apply the brakes. for the record, air brakes are MUCH more sensitive than hydraulic brakes. with hydraulic brakes, when you push the pedal you are using the force from your leg to push that fluid to the calipers with the help of a booster. with air brakes, when you push that pedal, you are simply opening a 2 stage valve and allowing a pressure that is already present to flow into the brake chambers. that is why they are so responsive, because youre opeing a valve with near 120 psi behind it. thats why when tractors bobtail they can lock up the brakes so easy, because they are so touchy.



in the event of a leak in the system, with hydraulics, your SOL, once your precious fluid is gone, you can kiss your braking ability by by. with air brakes, the compressor will continue to pump air as long as it needs untill the governor opens the popets an lets it free wheel. if you are hauling a load, and blow a brake like, say its hydraulic, there go your brakes, no chance of stoping, if its air, then the spring brake decompresses and the brakes are mechanically applied. that is the beauty of air brakes, with out air the vehicle can not move. there are some awesome valves out there for differnt applications too, for example, say you got a 53' with 80k on it, you loose tractor brakes, you cant stop that load with your foot pedal now, but you can pull the trailer hand valve and apply trailer brakes to come to a stop. you dont have this option in a strait truck, so if you loose primary air (air used to apply drive axle brakes and release park brakes(the park brake stays released due to air being traped by a check valve. )secondary air is for steer axle brakes and accesrories) youve lost all but your steer brakes, but when you apply the brake pedal, it uses the secondary air that you have, to activate a valve that releases air from park side of the chamber to produce a mechanical application at the drive axles. this can be repeated 8+ times before all air is exhausted and the brakes lock down.



as far as lines icing up, a good driver should drain his tanks daily, at the least his supply tank. if he fogets and gets some condesation build up, shame on him, dump a little alchohol and get back on the road. another practical benifit of air brakes, ABS, with hydraulic, you have to recover the fluid in an ABS event, with air brakes, the air is simply exhausted. hydraulic brakes have a bunch of componants to deal with to, fluid resevior, booster, master cylinders, slave cylinders, calipers, wheel cylinders, etc. air brakes dont have too much more than that, compressor, governor, airdryer(not neccesary), tanks (thats the bulkiest part of the system), chambers, slacks. and with the access of air, you can run air ride suspension, air horns, air ride cab, air ride seat, air lockers for drive axles, air locking hubs for 4x4, the list goes on. dont mean to rag on you, or chew your ear off, but i love air brakes, and am pretty pasionate about them. if it was my way, there wouldnt be anything but air brakes, i know a number of ole boys that would agree with that statement

I meant to agree with you I do like air brakes. The upkeep on air brakes is minor compared to Hyd. brakes in my opinion.

 

[cojhl2]

as far as the true engine brake goes, man ive layed in bed sooo many nights racking my brain about how to make this work. heres my thought. first, your main and bigist obstacle, fuel. how could you cut out a cylinders fuel supply with a PLN fuel system, at will, while driving down the road?? with a EUI fuel system its just too easy, dont sent voltage to the injector solenoid, injector rocker still does its thing, but theres no fuel in the nozzle to be injected, all the while the other side of the injector rocker is pressurizing the oil in the jake oil rail holding the exhaust valves open. the most brilliant design ever. but, how to make it work with a PLN fuel system???? it goes without saying, youd have to custom design a whole new valve cover that would allow room for the jake assembly while still being able to seal to the 12 valve head which has the six individual valvecover surfaces. i honestly dont see it as possible. besides just making the room for it on the head, there is:

A. ) no injector rocker, the fuel delivery is totally seprate from the valve operation

B. ) with the PLN system i dont see it being possible to deny fuel from the injector if the VE/P-pump is in operation it would have to have an intermediat valve that would allow for the fuel to be routed to the return an never reach the injector. i cant emagine the system it would take to design that. i could work though, one solenoid block, 6 inlets 12 outlets, an electronic controled 2 way vavle per orifice, when the jakes are activated the voltage used in parralel to activate the fuel diversion and close the oil passage in the jake oil rail, an to pressurize the oil to depress the exhaust valve at almost exactly TDC... mhhh yet another mystery some day i may get an old junk 12valve an hack at this pipe dream, it would be a fun project.

A Jake is activated by elec and the valve opened near TDC on the combustion stroke by engine oil pressure, not fuel oil pressure. (it does not stay open) The electric component does not activate if the speed lever is closed.

 

[JGrefenstette]

hahah yeah carl i can type, not to good though, that took 2 days :-laf

i agree cojhl2 the jake system does use a electronic solenoid to block off the oil return which quickly fills the passage and unseats the check valve then filling the passage way to the master and slave piston. when the injector rocker comes up it contacts the master piston which transfers hydraulic force to the slave piston, which then pushes the exhaust valves open, to exhaust all the engery built up that is needed to push the piston back down. now it takes energy from the wheel driven force to rotate the crank and pull the piston back down while at the same time pushing against the compression strokes of the other cylinders. such a brilliant system. if what i said before made it sound like the hydraulic system of the jake is operated by fuel and not engine oil, i appologize. it may have sounded confuseing between the jake hydraulics and the ability to deny fuel from the injector.

 

[cojhl2]

Agree

Hi Jimmy, I prob should have read a little closer.



But we agree for sure. i guess it will eventually be replaced by retarders though??



As I understand it from reading about Clessie Cummins that system was invented by him. He was so prolific regarding these mechanical things. he was having probs with Cummins Engine Co so went to the Jacobs Manufacturing Co and they built it, hence the name jacobs brake.



Back in the 50's we recognized that in the hill country of the West it was not good for an engine to run downhill with no fire then at the bottom build about 1500deg almost instantaneously. So Exhaust brakes were developed to keep the engine working and hence save some heat in the combustion chamber. In fact one of my first driving bosses wanted to keep a little fire in the chamber by riding the throttle slightly while braking just to keep the cyls warm!



Then along came Jake!! One of the things about it though it lets compression pressure go to 0 at the end of compression and hence would not the cyl cool also.



So many questions...



BTW I think there is a 1993 W350 in Dayton, WA with a 13sp. Thats what one of my friends told me anyhow. One of these days I'm gonna stop and talk to the owner.

 

[JGrefenstette]

hmm now im confused... hahhaha i thought what we were refering to as a Jacobs Engine Brake was a engine horse power Retarder??? is there something that works differently that your talking about?



no way, i had no idea that Clessie was behind the engine brake. that is awesome! yet another reason to love Cummins. man i dont know why i havent herd of that before, i even wrote an 8 page biography of Clessie Cummins in highschool. thats pretty facinating.



so explain to me what you mean when your talking about running an engine down hill with no fire, does that mean that yall would just turn the ignition off (hahaa or am just a total idiot?) or have another way of killing fuel supply but NOT exhausting compression? was this method just a trucking trick, or actually something that a manufacturer came out with?



ok i got some questions for any one who is up in the Gear Vendors overdrive unit. im wondering a few things. to avoid having to find a supper high geared rear end to allow an acceptable speed rang with a 10 speed, could one just install the overdrive unit and leave it in overdrive, then have the ability to go out of OD for getting a load upto speed? would the OD unit hold up to being activated all the time and having a transmission shifting through gears all the while?? does anyone know the ratio a GV overdrive unit has?

 

[JHumphries]

The ratio is 0. 78

I don't know if you could make a divorced overdrive unit. I seriously doubt it would/could bolt up to an eaton.

Dana had some three speed auxiliaries, however: under, direct and over.

 

[JHumphries]

However, if you find one with the adapter that matches a transfer case that was used in a divorced setup, the input yoke

from that unit might be able to work.

 

[cojhl2]

hmm now im confused... hahhaha i thought what we were refering to as a Jacobs Engine Brake was a engine horse power Retarder??? is there something that works differently that your talking about?



It is true the engine brake is a "retarder" in the generic sense. However there is a system that somehow uses hydraulics to retard truck movement.

Instead of the engine absorbing work then not giving it back this hydraulic process does it thru heat transfer.

My friend has two KWs with that arrangement and he claims that is a more modern way to retard truck movement.



It is called a Retarder in the world of trucks.



no way, i had no idea that Clessie was behind the engine brake. that is awesome! yet another reason to love Cummins. man i dont know why i havent herd of that before, i even wrote an 8 page biography of Clessie Cummins in highschool. thats pretty facinating.

Maybe I better go back and make sure but I'm pretty sure it is correct. When you get old as I am the brain gets full and things drop off the end!



so explain to me what you mean when your talking about running an engine down hill with no fire, does that mean that yall would just turn the ignition off (hahaa or am just a total idiot?) or have another way of killing fuel supply but NOT exhausting compression? was this method just a trucking trick, or actually something that a manufacturer came out with?

Of course there is no ignition on a compression ignition engine but when the power lever is off (foot off the "throttle") there is no fuel going to the combustion process. At the same time being a normal compression ignition engine it is getting a full load of ambient air during the intake stroke. Compression occurs and then expansion immediately after on what would be the power stroke under load. Except for some irreversibility the temp at the end of the "suck, squeeze, burn" cycles would be ambient air temp. Then at the bottom of the hill or grade you again put fuel to the engine and immediately the temp goes to over 2000F. This is very hard on engine components.



So the idea of the exhaust brake was to make the engine do work to keep some heat in it.



I've never completely understood why the Jake brake solved that heat issue but of course it does absorb work because it makes the engine go thru the compression stroke then wastes the work done.



A further note on this: A gas engine has to do work on the intake stroke and hence provides some engine braking when power is off. However when hauling posts with a 6cyl F600 in the 50's I one time on a down grade turned the ignition off then opened and closed the throttle and it seemed to not make a difference on how the engine held the truck back.







Jimmy I love discussing these kind of things with someone like yourself that is interested and has strong knowledge in the subject. If I not have gotten in the world of computers as career a lot of my questions would be answered by now.

 

[Carl Cook]

hmm now im confused... hahhaha i thought what we were refering to as a Jacobs Engine Brake was a engine horse power Retarder??? is there something that works differently that your talking about?



no way, i had no idea that Clessie was behind the engine brake. that is awesome! yet another reason to love Cummins. man i dont know why i havent herd of that before, i even wrote an 8 page biography of Clessie Cummins in highschool. thats pretty facinating.



so explain to me what you mean when your talking about running an engine down hill with no fire, does that mean that yall would just turn the ignition off (hahaa or am just a total idiot?) or have another way of killing fuel supply but NOT exhausting compression? was this method just a trucking trick, or actually something that a manufacturer came out with?



ok i got some questions for any one who is up in the Gear Vendors overdrive unit. im wondering a few things. to avoid having to find a supper high geared rear end to allow an acceptable speed rang with a 10 speed, could one just install the overdrive unit and leave it in overdrive, then have the ability to go out of OD for getting a load upto speed? would the OD unit hold up to being activated all the time and having a transmission shifting through gears all the while?? does anyone know the ratio a GV overdrive unit has?

Have you ever heard of a auxilery called a Browny box? If I'm not mistakin they were made by a company called Brown Lipe. They made all sorts of auxilery boxes for medium duty and class 8 trucks. I would say there out of business now but those old boxes are still around. In missouri Arkansas Oklahoma Texas New Mexico Colorado A fellow can still find them. About a year ago I sold a 2 speed to fellow to put in a Ford rol back. I,m not sure he used it. I need to call him and buy it back.

 

[NIsaacs]

Hey Carl, what happened with that F600 Ford when ya turned the key back on? Did ya blow the muffler off?



Before Cat put "Jake's" on their Engines they used a hydraulic retarder somehow, maybe they still do?



One of the big loggers I worked with tried one of the magnetic ones (retarder) on a log trailer but it was not too successful. It needed a huge Alternator, heavy power cable from the truck to the trailer and would get so hot it could set fires in tall grass. It was mounted in the center of the front axle on the trailer and was driven with axles just like a differential. It was expensive, heavy and high maintenance. They make them for drivelines too.



The aux. transmission in my Ford is a Spicer 5831C, old but like Carl said you can still find them. Spicer also made 6000, 7000 and 8000 series. The 5000 series is the smallest and fits easy.



The ratios on this one are: under=1. 27, direct=1. 00, over=0. 85



Nick

 

[SRath]

Jimmy, Do you know why the master cylinder in all hydraulic vehicles has two separate chambers? They are two separate systems. You could lose all the hydraulic fluid from a broken hose or line in the front and still have rear brakes or vice versa. There is a 3rd brake system, too: the manual emergency or parking brake system. That is triple redundancy and the reason you NEVER hear of total brake failure on a properly maintained vehicle with hydraulic brakes.

You live in a very warm state, and I don't know what experience you have in what you call a "class 8" truck, but all it takes is for ONE cold, brittle plastic airline to fail to lose all braking control with air brakes.

I say "control" because you are right about the spring brakes SLAMMING on, locked-up, in the event of a sudden loss of air. I speak from experience that you will NOT maintain control very easily or often when that happens, especially if the road is wet or, more likely, snow and ice covered.

Have you ever seen 1/4 or 1/2 mile long dual skid marks on the highway? Plenty of times, I'm sure. Those are the marks of a semi that lost air pressure suddenly at highway speed.

I was pulling doubles one night when a trailer recap blew. Not my first rodeo there, but this time the gator it flung off ripped my front trailer's airline off the underside of the trailer. INSTANTLY, all of my brakes locked up. I was heavily loaded and going down a very long steep grade with a bridge over a river at the bottom and was doing 70 mph.

My black marks were nearly a mile long and lasted for a couple of years. Every tire on the trailers and articulator blew once they burned through the rubber and the cords. Just try controlling a set of wiggle wagons with the brakes locked up and 12 blown tires... Only the tractor tires, 4 drive and 2 steer, survived since they are on a separate system and the steers did not have spring brakes (thank God!). I had no air to the trailers or articulator, so I had no controllable brakes since my tractor brakes were quickly overwhelmed and smoked and the only air they had was what little was left in their tank, but at least the steer and drive tires stayed round and provided some modicum of control. I kept those doubles straight and came to a stop finally just a few feet from the bridge railing. Nothing I could do but hang on and try to steer and keep the wagons behind me. If the road had been even just wet, it would have been an uncontrolled jacknife and pileup with the trailers beating me to the bottom of the hill.

Another time, in brutally cold sub-zero weather and in a snowstorm, the red plastic airline (which releases the spring brakes) got so brittle it snapped as i was making a slow, gentle exit on a curved offramp, instantly setting the trailer brakes. The trailer beat me and the tractor to the stop sign.

The reason you see airbrakes on large straight trucks, etc, is the sheer size of the brake shoes and the large distance they must travel to the drums. Applying the brake pedal opens an air valve allowing stored air pressure to rush into all those large brake chambers and move those large shoes a large distance. It would take a humongous hydraulic master cylinder and a very long pedal stroke to supply enough hydraulic (brake) fluid to do the same job since the hydraulic fluid is not already pressurized.

I could go on and on with experiences I have had with airbrake failures over the past 2 million miles in semis, but I think you get the picture. Air brakes have their place, but it is NOT on small passenger vehicles like pickup trucks.

One last thing: The reason you need special licensing on a CDL for airbrake equipment is the fact that they ARE more difficult to control and use. Less precise. Prone to problems hydraulic brakes do not have. Less idiot-proof.

 

[cojhl2]

Well here's watcha do: Install a chromium plated genuine accessory air brake sound simulator.

My friend at the time dodge was designing the Class 8 "lookalike" PU worked for GM so had the some pre knowledge of this.

That's what he said he was going to do!

 

[JHumphries]

There is an aftermarket kit for mounting an air compressor on top the alternator, you put a differnt pully on the alt, an it runs a belt for the compressor. the industrial b-series run the cummins air compressor off the gear housing. where you would have your vaccum pump and ps pump on the dodge, you have the compressor and hydraulic pump.

Do you know where to find this?Oo.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Do you know where to find this?Oo.

There are two manufaturers... I can't remember names. Ones in California, and I think the other in AZ. If you go read through Bschwarzli's Ultimate 1st gen thread, you'll see some comments on it, though.



As for a 10spd..... I'd think a two speed rear axle would be much more feasible... . and easier to install!

 

[JHumphries]

Two speed axle makes it hard to use in 4wd, but it's an option I haven't really thought of.
Thanks HHuntitall.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Well, I've worked on a lot of the older GMC trucks that had the Eaton two speeds, and they're pretty tough!! Fitting the axle and driveshafts would be much easier than lifting the cab, divorcing the t-case(or finding a different one), and reworking BOTH driveshafts..... IMO, anyway. I've thought about it several times, I just haven't found an axle at the right price. Yeah, you'd have to watch keeping it in the same range as your front axle, but most likely, you need the lower range for when you're in 4wheel anyway..... And then you can still use 4low... . A ten speed would be cool, but the addition of weight and complication of drivelines don't appeal to me..... and maybe I just don't want to row through the gears anymore... . I've got 15 in the KW.

 

[NIsaacs]

Two speed axle makes it hard to use in 4wd, but it's an option I haven't really thought of.

Thanks HHuntitall.

This is another cool option however if you ever forgot and shifted the 2spd while in 4x4... .



I have studied it some too but it was for my 4x2 dually. I think most 2spd axles are dually and it is hard to get a ratio high enough for a small rig. Like HH said, it would be way easy.



Nick

 

[HHhuntitall]

This is another cool option however if you ever forgot and shifted the 2spd while in 4x4... .



I have studied it some too but it was for my 4x2 dually. I think most 2spd axles are dually and it is hard to get a ratio high enough for a small rig. Like HH said, it would be way easy.



Nick

I don't know about that ratio... . 3. 70 is pretty common, especially in the upper gear ratio..... add 35"(low profile 22. 5) or 42" tires to that, and it looks pretty good to me... ... At least then you'd have the excuse to add 22. 5 rims so you could get the bolt pattern to match front and back... I'd wager some singles could be manufactured... . but I'm not sure about axle width... I needed duals when I was looking at it... .



As far as shifting, you can always wire it into high(matching gear ratio) if you use electric shift, with the 4x4 indicator light..... not perfect, but certainly would prevent some carnage..... not perfect for shift on the fly, but would ease your mind if someone else were to drive it... .



As for the 10 speed in the truck, after measuring the '92 Pete(which has a ten speed) and my '93 Dodge, I'm gonna estimate, without serious floor modification of the cab, you're gonna have to have at least a 4" body lift... . maybe more. And that's with moving the shifter back, removing the center console, and using a straight shifter lever... ... I'm sure the engine adapter is readily available. MWilson will be able to find you the part number from Freightliner, as I've seen several of their single axle trucks fitted with the 10spd and 5. 9.....



I didn't deliberately hijack the thread... . I just get off subject... .

 

[NIsaacs]

Humm, 370's would be good, wonder what the under would be? One of the biggest issues would be the need for a drive line E-brake, but that could be done.



No hijack's done, it is a 10-speed thread I addressed the size in the other running 10-speed thread. I think you are looking at a larger 10-speed. I posted a picture and sizes of the 6610.



Nick

 

[mwilson]

Using a 1998 Freightliner FL70 with a 5. 9 "B" series running against an RT-6609A Fuller 9 speed transmission I come up with the following #2 Flywheel Housing part number...



3902139 past number

3904172 past number

3931716 current number



Flywheel Part Number is

3921263 past number

4933458 current number



This is also going to require a different starter as well, I think... ...



If you go junkyarding write down all the above numbers, you could use any of them.



Mike.