Engine oil questions

[LFalconer]

^^^That is CJ4 spec. Just like the Delo 400 ColemanR has been running most of his 600k miles.

That is great miles from your Cummins. If in doubt one can always do an oil sample and have Blackstone analysis same. I did this at 75K to baseline the engine after 5K on the oil. All results less than typical. I use Valvoline Cummins Premium Blue 5w-40 1 gallon mixed with 2 gallons of Valvoline 15w-40 All Fleet in the winter. I purchase at Napa on sale.

Summer is straight 15W-40 either Premium Cummins Blue or the Valvoline All Fleet - both are Valvoline products

Luke

 

[Tuesdak]

Your "impressive documentation" is a link on biodiesel, not engine oil. Yes...

If your running an engine hot enough to boil a quart every 500 miles as you claim, no oil is going to offer the protection you need. And you said the oil was completely worn out after 3000 miles, yet in those 3000 miles you had replaced 6 quarts of oil? And the CI4 specd oil held up just fine, burned no oil and was able to run past the 2500 service intervals? I'm having a hard time comprehending this.

GM moved the CDR system from the oil fill to the valve covers on the 6.2/6.5 engines. This gives you the hottest oil and a strong vacuum as the CDR's didn't work so well. Oil consumption is simply a sign of working hard, but, useless to get warranty on (high oil consumption) anything like 3.8L Dodge minivan engines. Below I show Synthetic is all the change required to make it.

The biggest difference between the 2 specs is CJ4 has lower amounts of ZDP, sulfur, sulfated ash and Phosphorous. These were all cost effective EP lubricants and anti oxidants, and they work quite well but are not the only options. The viable options for CJ4 oils cost more (hence the higher costs) and do as good a job or better. Per the American Petroleum Institute, the tests required to pass the CJ4 rating are significantly more demanding than the previous CI4 spec. "CJ4 oils are superior in wear protection, deposit and oil consumption control, soot related viscosity control, prevention of viscosity loss from shearing, used low oil temperature pump ability, and protection from thermal and oxidative breakdown."

What is marketing going to say? "The EPA ruined your oil so be a our test subject."

Again, this is directly from the company that sets the standards.
The other argument people have a hard time letting go of is the lower TBN that CJ4 has. Again, not needed now that we have gone from 500ppm to 15ppm fuel. The TBN on my 15-20k mile oil is generally half or slightly less from what it started out at. Lots of detergents left.

I don't measure TBN as much anymore, but, it's failed me.

We have several cranes at work (all pre emission) that have been getting CJ4 oil in them since around 08 AND 500ppm off road fuel up until around 2010 when it went to 15ppm as well. Many of these engines are north of 20k hours and still run excellent.

This is what matters - you have something that is working for you.

You still have yet to show proof of any oil related failures. I am in no way calling you out, but you have now eluded to this a few times and have yet to show your failures were OIL related and not a result of an overtaxed engine with an inadequate cooling system like we all know the 6.5s were.

6.5's are still a production engine, have been re-designed blocks and heads to address cooling and cracking. The Original 6.2 that a 6.5 is bored out from used like 30 weight oil. So GM doubled the power with a restrictive turbo that keeps heat in via exhaust restriction, changed the body style to reduce airflow through the radiator, reversed the rotation on water pumps that flowed more coolant to the drive's side cyl bank, and fixed most of the issues by 1998 with a better fan and High Output water pump.

Don't let the 6.5 distract you. Again a 2008 Duramax designed for this oil also had trouble with viscosity going toward 50 weight and low oil pressure at idle.

Amsoil is one of the only options available anymore that I am aware of that sells a CI4 oil, and they will continue to formulate it so long as the Amsoil faithful continue to buy it. Schaeffers also has a CI4 oil but it is a 50wt racing oil. That leaves an awful lot of pre emission engines on the road day in and day out running CJ4 oil. That alone should speak for itself.

So digging into my archives I found some of the old oil samples.

One stands out as a surprise failure of the oil. All of a sudden the oil was no longer the proper choice for the engine. As I had poor results with the Shell Rotella I would just buy what was on sale as oil changes were 3000 miles, I couldn't do worse, and I wasn't hauling anything at the time. So here we have a serious warning that the Valvoline Blue oil can't take it:

Further the "replacement oil" Mobil Delvac Can't take it either. It was dumped out early and replaced with full synthetic that could take it.

Piston Scuffing is what oil brag about protecting you from. So you mean to tell me an engine that did just fine on straight 30 weight oil can seriously screw up CJ4 oil!? Yes. :--)

The results are from using one account and oil lab confusion of combining everything. They have since improved and I didn't have time to sort them out after all I had the results I needed and knew was was sent in. Regardless from right to left: Last 2 samples from the 2008 Duramax showing a viscosity change to 50 weight, a sample without towing, a gas engine, Oil failure while towing scuffing the #1 piston on a 6.5, Another 6.5 truck the the oil analysis constantly showed high wear metals and was torn down to find copper showing in the bearings.

After the RED UOA the piston may have been cracked when it got scuffed and 7000 miles later simply burned through. The combustion pressure in the crankcase popped the valve cover gaskets and oiled things up quick.

The other engine that was giving us bad wear metals looked like this:

 

[Tuesdak]

Attachments above appear to have had trouble so continuing on in a 2nd post.

The above shows extreme problems with viscosity. Not only was the oil trying to get thicker on me it was also dropping oil pressure off when hot. Buying oil in 5 gal pails I did not want to change to synthetic and I didn't have the bottom line to afford it with The Great Depression V2 our country was in. Here is the information we got from GM when we had low pressure oil alarms going off with "stop engine". After towing for 550 miles we would stop in 115+ degree weather and idle while we kicked off the trailer. When we got back in and dropped it in drive the oil pressure dropped off for a moment and triggered the alarm. GM of course decided to "buffer" the oil has failed warning. Never mind I had an aftermarket 2 quart oil cooler on the 2008 for extra oil cooling.

#PIP4682: Low Oil Pressure Warning Or Indicator - keywords 6.6 6.6L chime cluster diesel engine gage gauge IPC LMM panel - (Aug 6, 2009)
Subject:
Low Oil Pressure Warning or Indicator
Models: 2007-2009 Chevrolet Express, Silverado
2007-2009 GMC Savana, Sierra
Equipped with the 6.6L diesel engine RPO code LMM


The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:

A dealer may encounter a customer concern of a low oil pressure warning or indicator.
The customer concern will be a low oil pressure warning coming on when slowing to a stop, in high ambient temperatures, and after being driven at highway speeds. The warning may not come on until the vehicle actually makes the stop, then the vehicle is accelerated. The instrument panel gauge may not show pressure below 206KPa or 30 PSI.
Recommendation/Instructions:

Complete the normal SI diagnostics for low oil pressure. Verify oil pressure reading with a mechanical gauge.
The SI specifications for oil pressure are:

Oil Pressure - Minimum- Hot - at idle is 98 KPa/14 psi

Oil Pressure - Minimum - 1800 RPM - 294 KPa/42 psi

A dealer technician may notice the oil pressure (on the mechanical gauge) is reading at or near 82-96 KPa (12-14 PSI) when the indicator has been noticed.

Engineering is investigating these low oil pressure indication concerns with a focus on the oil pressure monitoring system calibration. Please provide a product report (using newest version of bulletin 02-00-89-002) if a vehicle exhibits this condition.

Verify customers have followed proper oil change intervals. Change the oil with a diesel rated 15W-40 oil (following diesel supplement owner's manual instructions) before diagnosing any low oil pressure concerns. With fresh oil installed, evaluate the engine oil pressure with engine temperature at 85* C (185* F) for 15 minutes.

If the oil pressure is 8 PSI or higher do not attempt engine or gauge repairs.

If oil pressure is below 8 PSI, continue with the SI diagnostics for low oil pressure, and make necessary repairs.

Note: The instrument panel gauge is buffered. The actual reading taken with the mechanical gauge may not correspond with what is seen on the instrument panel gauge. Rely on only the mechanical oil pressure gauge for this diagnosis.

Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information. WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
© 2009 General Motors Corporation. All rights reserved.


Some pics of hauling.

 

[JR]

I continue to fail to see how any of this is oil spec related.
Where is your CI4 UOA's? I assume you must have some to have come to the conclusion that this is all caused by CJ4 spec oils and is completely avoidable with a CI4....which begs the question, why are you running CJ4 oils? You can buy ALOT of expensive CI4 Am$oil compared to the cost of rebuilding engines and lost down time.

I encourage you and anyone else to look a little deeper into the qualifying bench tests required for CI4 and CJ4 oils. It is fact, not speculation, that the CJ4 spec requires improved valve train protection, better control oil consumption, and better soot related viscosity thickening protection than any previous spec oil. New engines run hotter, require more EGR, and have the tendency to shear oils much quicker than older diesel engines. And yet they are required to do the same work... There were also 3 added tests, one specifically for ISB engines, for valve train wear that is required to pass the CJ4 spec that was never required for CI4. This was specifically required to address the ZDDP concerns, and yet there is a tight group on here that seems to still be concerned...maybe they dont think the thousands of hours of testing by Cummins werent sufficient...or maybe theyre just not aware of this specific test....There were also 2 others, a Cat C13 test for oil consumption and iron piston deposits and the Mack T-12 test which measures ring and liner wear.
I can show you several heavy duty diesel engines that are anywhere from 10-30 years old on the family farm that have been getting a solid CJ4 diet since it came to market in 07. These engines get ran hard in the field in the spring and fall and sit in unheated shops in the winter time without being plugged in. They are ran hard, as is any tractor working the field, and are all in excellent condition with good compression and very little oil consumption. My results are far from unique, as 99% of the population runs CJ4 spec oil and sees the same results. Its seriously not an issue.

 

[AH64ID]

For me it's good enough that Amsoil and Cummins reps tell me to run CI-4 in my ISB until it's no longer available.

Yes CJ-4 meets CI-4 specs, or the CES 20078 that my engine originally required... but both my oil manufacturer and engine manufacturer recommend the older spec oil.

 

[bigceltic]

For me it's good enough that Amsoil and Cummins reps tell me to run CI-4 in my ISB until it's no longer available.

Yes CJ-4 meets CI-4 specs, or the CES 20078 that my engine originally required... but both my oil manufacturer and engine manufacturer recommend the older spec oil.

John,

So are you running the Amsoil SAE 15W-40 Heavy-Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil?

I have been using the Premium API CJ-4 Synthetic and am thinking I need to switch (I have a 2006). Thoughts?

TIA,
George

 

[AH64ID]

Yes I run the AME 15w-40, so far it's been a great oil.

I have talked to a few people and they have switched back to the CI oil, personally it's a win win for me. Cheaper, higher TBN, and more recommendations.

 

[bigceltic]

Yes I run the AME 15w-40, so far it's been a great oil.

I have talked to a few people and they have switched back to the CI oil, personally it's a win win for me. Cheaper, higher TBN, and more recommendations.

Thanks. Will try that next change.

 

[JR]

Yes CJ-4 meets CI-4 specs, or the CES 20078 that my engine originally required... but both my oil manufacturer and engine manufacturer recommend the older spec oil.

Following that logic do you source all the other originally spec'd fluids that came with your truck rather than using the current fluids?

Quoted from Machinery Lubrication:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1036/diesel-engine-oil

Backward Compatibility
ASTM has mandated backward compatibility with existing API CI-4 and CI-4 Plus engine oils for the API CJ-4 classification. To ensure backward compatibility, a combination of existing CI-4 and CI-4 Plus laboratory and engine bench tests are used in conjunction with new engine sequence tests that utilize ultra low sulfur diesel fuel. The new engine sequence tests for API CJ-4 include the following:

Mack T-12 - This 300-hour test measures the engine oil's ability to protect against power cylinder wear, soot thickening, bearing corrosion and oxidation at high operating temperatures and high EGR rates.

Caterpillar C-13 - This 500-hour test is based upon a modified C-13 on-highway, six-cylinder, 445-horsepower engine with ACERT technology and closed crankcase ventilation. The test measures the engine oil's ability to protect against excessive oil consumption and the formation of piston deposits.

Cummins ISB - This test utilizes the Cummins 5.9L ISB medium-duty diesel engine equipped with EGR and diesel particulate filters. This 350-hour, two-stage test is designed to evaluate the engine oil's ability to prevent slider valve-train wear and aftertreatment compatibility.

Cummins ISM - This 200-hour, four-stage test evaluates an engine oil's ability to protect turbocharged, after-cooled four-stroke cycle diesel engines equipped with EGR against valve-train wear, cylinder and liner wear, filter plugging and deposit formation under soot-laden conditions.

The proof is in the countless UOA's on pre emission engines and CJ4 oil as well as real world useage. I have seen UOAs from a few of the high hour craneand shuttlewagon engines and they are all well within the universal averages on wear metals. The Shuttlewagons get abused as much as anything i have ever seen, an operator jumps in after its been sitting in ambient winter temps without being plugged in, started and immediately hooked to several rail cars. Once hooked they run wide open to get the load moving, switch them to a different track or push them out the plant, and then parked. They rarely get ran enough to even get up to temp in the cold weather, and this cycle happens several times a day 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Brutal conditions with high engine load demand, and yet these engines all are well north of 10k hours with zero issues. (8.3 Cummins) Same goes for the 5088 on the farm thats nearly as old as I am, we pulled the head 2 years ago for a head gasket and the cross hatches were still in the cylinder bores. My uncle sent off a sample just to be sure, nothing out of the ordinary there either. I just don't understand the phobia of running the newer spec oil.

 

[Tuesdak]

I continue to fail to see how any of this is oil spec related.
Where is your CI4 UOA's? I assume you must have some to have come to the conclusion that this is all caused by CJ4 spec oils and is completely avoidable with a CI4....which begs the question, why are you running CJ4 oils? You can buy ALOT of expensive CI4 Am$oil compared to the cost of rebuilding engines and lost down time.

I encourage you and anyone else to look a little deeper into the qualifying bench tests required for CI4 and CJ4 oils. It is fact, not speculation, that the CJ4 spec requires improved valve train protection, better control oil consumption, and better soot related viscosity thickening protection than any previous spec oil. New engines run hotter, require more EGR, and have the tendency to shear oils much quicker than older diesel engines. And yet they are required to do the same work... There were also 3 added tests, one specifically for ISB engines, for valve train wear that is required to pass the CJ4 spec that was never required for CI4. This was specifically required to address the ZDDP concerns, and yet there is a tight group on here that seems to still be concerned...maybe they dont think the thousands of hours of testing by Cummins werent sufficient...or maybe theyre just not aware of this specific test....There were also 2 others, a Cat C13 test for oil consumption and iron piston deposits and the Mack T-12 test which measures ring and liner wear.
I can show you several heavy duty diesel engines that are anywhere from 10-30 years old on the family farm that have been getting a solid CJ4 diet since it came to market in 07. These engines get ran hard in the field in the spring and fall and sit in unheated shops in the winter time without being plugged in. They are ran hard, as is any tractor working the field, and are all in excellent condition with good compression and very little oil consumption. My results are far from unique, as 99% of the population runs CJ4 spec oil and sees the same results. Its seriously not an issue.

Again this is my experience with the new CJ4 oil that possibly indicates why it was reformulated per fleet operator demand and I simply can't be alone. Look at the age of my results and when the oil was reformulated. Maybe the 2008 would do better today than it did 5 years ago?

Yes, hindsight being 20-20 I should have used a synthetic oil that better has my back when needed. The better oil saving the engine from destruction when the trucking gods smite thee is the entire debate in this thread. With the CJ4 marketing and "it's better" well the above results are why I think it isn't. CJ4 simply hasn't had my back in conventional oil. By marketing it's supposed to and how would I guess that synthetic is the minimum needed aside of the marketing? The ONLY test that matters to me is how well it does in my use and that is why UOA lets me keep tabs on it. I'll write the engine failure off, but, even then different good running engines having trouble with it per UOA I can't ignore.

Are you running UOA to see if the oil is still any good? Not saying it isn't after all the temperature difference getting to 121 degrees out here could be the factor that makes all the difference. A running engine I have posted above, but, the oil was "failing" with the conditions the engine was putting on it. Even though the oil was failing it may not fail the engine yet esp. at the short change intervals. This is why a running engine isn't as convincing as running with good UOA to me.

No I generally don't go looking for old oils that have an old spec as history shows improvement until recent EPA involvement. However watching the EPA ruin what was a good thing I am starting to change my mind. Regardless I find that going synthetic gives me better protection. Sadly I need to start at synthetic before even considering longer drain intervals. Speaking of that I tried some Royal Purple in my 2003 5.9 and it drank it excessively and UOA flashed high on copper... So I am still looking for a good oil.


Not to derail this thread, but, engine oil failure is common with gas engines when they sludge up and lock up. The most recent example is GM's oil life system going too long of an interval and ruining 3.6 liter V6 timing chains. Only the class action can blame the OEM design.

 

[JR]

Yes I do track my oil with UOA, although I wouldn't consider what I put my engine through to be enough of a test to make a believer of me that the oil works. As I mentioned above, I have seen UOAs of off highway engines with much more severe duty cycles and high engine loads with good UOAs, and that is what makes me a believer that it is an acceptable oil.

 

[AH64ID]

Following that logic do you source all the other originally spec'd fluids that came with your truck rather than using the current fluids?

While I am unaware of any other updated fluids, thou they may exist, it is not the same logic. The reason it's different is I don't have any information from the oil manufacturer or component manufacturer recommitting using the old standard, not the new one. There must be a reason both Amsoil and Cummins recommend CI-4 oil over CJ-4 oil.

Amsoil even went so far as to "unofficially" reccommend CI-4 oil in a deleted 6.7, over CJ-4 oil.

Backwords compatibility doesn't mean better than, just means it met the minimum spec.

 

[JR]

Amsoil recommends it because they have created a niche market and are reaping the benefits from those that may not otherwise fall for the typical Amsoil marketi hing hype. They'll ride that train as long as its beneficial to them, and when its not they won't offer it anymore.

I'd be very interested in seeing any published data from Cummins engineers recommending the CI4 oil over the CJ4 on pre emission engines. If there is such a recommendation than they are contradicting themselves as they are/were apparently satisfied over the above specific ISB/ISM requirements

 

[AH64ID]

Amsoil recommends it because they have created a niche market and are reaping the benefits from those that may not otherwise fall for the typical Amsoil marketi hing hype. They'll ride that train as long as its beneficial to them, and when its not they won't offer it anymore.

I'd be very interested in seeing any published data from Cummins engineers recommending the CI4 oil over the CJ4 on pre emission engines. If there is such a recommendation than they are contradicting themselves as they are/were apparently satisfied over the above specific ISB/ISM requirements

Time will tell on how long the oil is offered. The additive packages for soot control are the same CI to CJ, at least with Amsoil, but the CI offers better wear protection and TBN, which should make it simple to see how it's a better oil.

I doubt you will ever see anything in writing from Cummins, but who knows... Unofficial conversations are often more informative than official ones anyhow.

FWIW, CH oil is where soot suspension started. Cummins allows for the same soot percentage in the oil with CH, CI, and CJ oils. CJ has nothing special on soot that CH or CJ didn't have, in terms on a B series engine. The soot limit is double what it was on CF oils. Larger engines do get a little more soot allowance with CI than CH, and CJ than CI, but not the B series. Not sure why, thou it could be because all engines except the B require a bypass filter??

 

[Tractorat]

I decided to sidestep the whole issue and use the most expensive synthetic oil I could find (red line). But a couple of very respected diesel shops here in seattle have said that if there truely was an issue with the newer oils, they would have seem it by now. And they have not. (most people dont follow the tdr, and just use what the parts stores sell anyway)

 

[amsoilman]

Commercial category oils for diesel engines are engineered with a focus on
the following performance characteristics:
• Wear protection
• Oil viscosity
• Film strength
• Anti -wear additives
• Oil durability & soot handling
• Oil detergency and dispersancy
• Inhibiting acid (oil TBN)
• Emissions system comparability

Current API Standards: Four-Stroke Diesel Engines

CJ-4 OILS.
Designed for MY 2007 and newer engines with EGR exhaust systems.
Designed for more hostile environments than CI-4+.
Has less sulfated ash (metal by-products of combustion) than CI-4+ oils.

CI-4+ OILS.
Designed for MY 2006 and older diesel engines.
Compatible with high- and low-sulfur fuel.
Greater soot-handling abilities and shear stability than CI-4 oils.
Higher levels of sulfated ash than CJ-4 and is not compatible with
aftertreatment systems in emissions-compliant 2007 and newer engines

 

[JR]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwi...etailpage&x-yt-cl=84924572&x-yt-ts=1422411861



One of many videos of high mileage pre emission engines using the current spec oil (CJ4). These are typical results of using a quality synthetic oil.

 

[AH64ID]

It's not a bad oil, there are just many who believe it's not better than CI-4.

 

[deaner70]

What are the thoughts of Baldwin filters? Fuel and Oil? Local guy telling me nothing is better. I read the pdf's on oil filters that John (i think) cut open and compared. Fleetguard and Wix he liked the best. Just wonering.

Also, anyone ever hear of and/or use Wolfshead oil? Lots of my Amish neighbors sell it, but I have never checked into it or used it.

 

[JR]

Donaldson ELF7349 is one of the best if not the best filter for these engines. The Amsoil oil filter for the Cummins is a rebadged Donaldson.
The Fleetgaurd Stratospore is also an excellent filter, but is also substantially more than the Don hialdsons.

At one time Wolfs Head was blended by Pennzoil, but Im not so sure they were the same oil. Its more of an entry level oil, when it comes to an 8k dollar engine, I'd probably look for a better quality oil.