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Engine Ticks and Knocks

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I am still looking for opinions on whether or not the infamous "spark knock" like noise is caused by ulsd.



What follows is my opinion only, and should therefore be taken with a large bowl of salt.



In my opinion, the reason your reception from Cummins and DC has been relatively cold is that you're chasing after a problem that really isn't a problem. Without having listened to your specific engine, I believe I can imagine the "spark" knock - does it sound like "ping" in a spark ignition engine?



If so, this has been around since the dawn of the 3rd generation trucks.



Furthermore, in my opinion, this noise you're hearing has been going on in your truck from day 1, but as it breaks in and, perhaps more importantly, as you continue to obsess over it, you perceive it has become more pronounced.



Thread from 2004

Definitive thread on the subject from 2004

Knock with sound clip (great thread)

Ping noise

Another thread on ping

Rattle at midrange RPM



The obvious question is whether this can be fixed, and more importantly, is it something that needs to be fixed? I suspect the ping might be corrected by using more ideal injection timing. Ideally, peak pressure occurs about 15° ATC, so that the delay period occurs across the top-center portion of the stroke. However, I believe Cummins intentionally retards the timing a bit in order to (theoretically) get combustion to run longer (for more completeness). You might guess, then, that by advancing the timing a little bit you'd pick up a little efficiency, and decrease the noise (at the sacrifice of emissions).



Of course, multiple injection events throw a wrench into that whole idea. If you're giving a pilot shot very early in the stroke, you've already 1) consumed some of the available oxygen in the mixture, and 2) significantly raised the heat in the combustion chamber, which should significantly reduce the ignition lag when the main fuel charge is delivered. The pilot injection, then, would have the effect of quieting the engine significantly (as we know it does).



Is it possible, then, that the pilot injection itself is the actual cause of this knock? It's certainly possible, and you can imagine that the knock would be quite small, since the fuel delivered is quite small. The cylinder would be relatively cold when the pilot shot is injected, and if it's delivered very far BTC, the rate of pressure rise would likely be extremely high, resulting in noise.



These are just some ideas, I've not done anything other than qualitative analysis on this, so it's just a theory.



Is this a problem, then? Will it harm engine durability? Yes, any kind of detonation will decrease engine life (in fact, to be accurate, simply running the engine at all will decrease it's life - maximum engine life is achieved if the vehicle is parked and never started up). The real question is, how much? If the pilot injection is what's causing the knock, we're talking about very small amounts of fuel, and very low energy relative to the design loads for the pistons, rods, bearings, crank, and block. Imagine what the peak pressure is from a shot of fuel that's only a small fraction of the design fuel charge.



If you want to talk to engineers at DC or Cummins, and get anything useful out of the discussion, I strongly suggest first reading the relevant literature on combustion in the diesel engine. A good place to start is the NACA technical reports server.



Ryan
 
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CT, have you considered maybe going after one of the fuel companies themselves for your answer? Couldn't be any harder then it is to ask good ol' D/C now, could it.
 
Mine was ticking two years ago. I just recently(couple months)towed 10k eight hundred miles and its gone. I have been running ulsd. I don't think its got anytjhing to do with it. I think its carbon deposits.
 
Thanks for all of your input. Esp. R. Battelle. I see I have a load of homework to do in order to talk more intelligently on this subject. I will now begin my advanced studies and keep you posted.



Thanks Again,

Chuck
 
I haven't checked in with the forums lately, so I just saw this post. My '04 developed a "spark knock' sound at around 10,000 miles. The Dodge dealer thought it was internal and wanted to tear the engine apart! (A frightening thought). I had read on this site about faulty injectors and suggested that possibility to them. They said hogwash. Before allowing them to dismantle my engine, I took the truck to a Cummins dealer for diagnosis. Several mechanics listened to the noise and unanimously stated that it was injector knock--- caused by faulty injectors. Cost me $100, but armed with this information in print, I went back to the Dodge dealer. They wound up replacing two injectors and that cured the problem. About a year later the problem resurfaced and they replaced two more injectors. Been okay for the last 20,000 miles. I do believe that Dodge is aware of this problem, but reluctant to fix it. Your engine shouldn't need additives to run properly!
 
Mine was ticking two years ago. I just recently(couple months)towed 10k eight hundred miles and its gone. I have been running ulsd. I don't think its got anytjhing to do with it. I think its carbon deposits.

Exactly my thoughts. I have given the seafoam mix in other websites and it has cured the problem.


Anyone that wants to listen I stated the mix earlier in this thread and the cautions of using it.
 
Exactly my thoughts. I have given the seafoam mix in other websites and it has cured the problem.





Anyone that wants to listen I stated the mix earlier in this thread and the cautions of using it.

I love Sea Foam, I used it to clean my Gasser injectors at 110k miles. The injectors had never been serviced in any way. :) I poured the can down the throttle body while holding the throttle assembly to keep the engine running. At first, there was a cloud of white smoke at the exhaust. After about half a can, the white smoke was gone. The truck ran very well afterwards. If you read all the uses section on the can you might think the stuff could cure cancer though:-laf
 
My new 2007 CTD 6spd 4x4 actually came with a "quick guide" that mentions turbo wistle and "knock" as normal for the 5. 9L. I went round and round with the dealer over the knock/ticking and my 2005 CTD, which started with about 6k miles. The last computer flash and adding 8oz PS to each tank kept the noise in check.





My 2006 CTD has developed the ticking noise over the last 5,000 miles. I am on a 5,000 mile cross country trip pulling a 12,000 lb Cardinal fiver. The noise started just before I left home. It was a subtle spark-knock like sound. Now after pulling my camper for 4,000 miles at speeds averaging 65mph, the ticking noise has become a loud rattle that is present at most speeds and rpm levels. It is much louder when cold and under acceleration under load.



I have been using mostly ULSD and have only added PS a couple of times. I am afraid the dealer will tell me that this is normal. I say rubbish. I had a 1999 24v CTD, and after that had a 2002 Duramax/Alli. Neither of these trucks developed weird noises.



I can't say I haven't driven the truck hard. I don't think carbon is the problem. Considering these conditions, Do any of you have any ideas what I should do to correct this annoying condition?? Or more importantly, will this loud rattle result more significant issues or damage to the drivetrain??



I am on my way home to Michigan and have about 1,500 miles to go. Should I drive a certain way, limit my speeds, or start using additional PS??



Thanks, Chuck

__________________________________________________ ________________

2006 Laramie 3500 QC SB 4x4 48re

2001 Cardinal 28ft. Fiver
 
I have the same noise, but, I can feel it in the line. What’s worse now it has started to have a metallic sound and seem to idle a little rougher. Put PS silver in, noise has not changed.
 
My 2006 CTD has developed the ticking noise over the last 5,000 miles. I am on a 5,000 mile cross country trip pulling a 12,000 lb Cardinal fiver. The noise started just before I left home. It was a subtle spark-knock like sound. Now after pulling my camper for 4,000 miles at speeds averaging 65mph, the ticking noise has become a loud rattle that is present at most speeds and rpm levels. It is much louder when cold and under acceleration under load.



Thanks, Chuck



Been wanting to post in this thread but held myself back. I've been going long now that I'm posting here in TDR so this time I'll try to be brief... or not.



You don't seem to like things sugar coated so here's what I think:



You have one or more bad injectors. The noise will get worse. Your economy will steadily fall quite a bit and you'll eventually realize that the power loss you hoped was in your head is actually real. You'll burn lot's of extra fuel before you either convince yourself or can convince the dealer that you have a problem. If the dealer doesn't think injectors are even "likely" to cause these symptoms then... ... ... . go to another dealer. You won't get anywhere with someone who either doesn't know or doesn't care about something that's rapidly becoming an obvious problem. People are complaining all the time about the same symptoms, often at low mileage. If you follow them long enough they eventually end up getting new injectors, often out of pocket, even when they had symptoms at 20K or less.



I tried additive #1, #2, #3, and so on. I finally started using Stanadyne which ends up running less than $1/10 gallons. They probably have the best reputation, no BS info and are the only ones to publish head to head data using industry approved test methods. Other than lower lubricity, I don't think ULSD is as different as people think. Lower BTU's, yes. Lower Cetane, yes. More of this and less of that, yes. Is the truck designed for it, yes. Should ULSD be of absolutely any concern, no. If you can pick between, get LSD. Otherwise, don't waste your time thinking about it. Pick an additive, use at or slightly below the recommended amount and be done with the whole "facts of life" thing. Lubricity is the only valid concern. I ran 1K+ miles at or below -20F and at least 300 miles below -30F with no additives, on a single trip. Fuel came from Twin Falls, ID, Great Falls, MT. , and Nisku, AB. Did my fuel freeze or filter plug, no.



You need to take those injectors seriously. Mine got bad enough to make me think the truck was going to blow up. Exactly the same sounds and symptoms from 80K earlier, just much, much worse. If you can't get a dealer to take an honest look then go to a diesel shop. Pay them to run all their flow tests with the injectors still in the engine. It won't be cheap but definately cheaper than wasting fuel in the long run. Take their data to different dealers, better yet go where that diesel shop recommends, until you get it fixed.



Still under warranty, right?



I've replaced four now and the other two are sitting next to me:

$465 plus $140 core each for the first two.

About $115 to replace #4, about $120 to later replace #1



$440 each for the second two.

About $150 to replace #5 and #6 at same time.



$945 for two next to me. Not installed yet.



nuff said for now. check my other posts. there aren't very many yet.
 
You have one or more bad injectors. The noise will get worse.



Before we go any further, I think we should clarify a little bit (if we can) about the different sounds we're addressing here.



In my opinion, a bad or failing injector will cause a knock that sounds like someone is under your hood banging against the block with a claw hammer.



In my opinion, a sound like "ping" in a gasoline engine (being a much quieter sound almost like someone tapping their fingers on a wooden desk), is not necessarily a bad injector - it's more likely fuel/timing related.



What do you guys think?



Ryan
 
Before we go any further, I think we should clarify a little bit (if we can) about the different sounds we're addressing here.



In my opinion, a bad or failing injector will cause a knock that sounds like someone is under your hood banging against the block with a claw hammer.



In my opinion, a sound like "ping" in a gasoline engine (being a much quieter sound almost like someone tapping their fingers on a wooden desk), is not necessarily a bad injector - it's more likely fuel/timing related.



What do you guys think?



Ryan



Sounds about right to me.



I am curious to know how many of the people that are saying their motor is "pinging', "knocking", "ratteling", etc... are new to diesels.



I have said it before, my truck has a "ping/rattle" to it that was not there the day I bought it but showed up a week later after towing a small trailer about 1400 miles. The "noise" has not gotten any worse. I said earlier in this thread that I think it might even be coming fromt eh flex plate or maybe the TC sine it only shows up in gear and not "P" or "N".
 
Well guys, one things for sure. If it's an injector noise, it WILL get worse.



I don't drive my truck on a daily basis so I just hope it either goes away or gets worse. In any event, the weather here in MI is pretty nasty now, so I won't be venturing out to the dealer any time soon. That's where I will start. I will let you know what their diesel tech tells me.



Chuck
 
Mine makes a variety of unpleasant knocking and pinging sounds. I don't know if it sounded that way the day I bought it or the noise developed with miles. I've talked to other owners at the fuel pumps whose '06 sounded like mine. As it neared 100k and the end of the warranty I worried about premature injector or injection pump failure and took it to a local dealer. They handed it back to me faster than they took it in with stupid advice to run fuel injector cleaner in it. I didn't really expect much from them anyway. They are one of the dealerships that operate in a mode I don't admire or trust and who I would never buy from anyway and they know that.



I am an RV transporter and have already put 125k miles on it in less than one year. It starts fine, runs fine, pulls hard, produces typical fuel economy, and seems normal and reliable in every way. It just sounds ugly.



I guess I'll run it until it fails. It may be a problem of noisy operation but not an indication of failure to come.



Harvey
 
I haven't checked in with the forums lately, so I just saw this post. My '04 developed a "spark knock' sound at around 10,000 miles. The Dodge dealer thought it was internal and wanted to tear the engine apart! (A frightening thought). I had read on this site about faulty injectors and suggested that possibility to them. They said hogwash. Before allowing them to dismantle my engine, I took the truck to a Cummins dealer for diagnosis. Several mechanics listened to the noise and unanimously stated that it was injector knock--- caused by faulty injectors. Cost me $100, but armed with this information in print, I went back to the Dodge dealer. They wound up replacing two injectors and that cured the problem. About a year later the problem resurfaced and they replaced two more injectors. Been okay for the last 20,000 miles. I do believe that Dodge is aware of this problem, but reluctant to fix it. Your engine shouldn't need additives to run properly!



Yes I read your post with great interest. I only said that the Dodge dealer would be the first place I went for the "pinging sound". I should have gone on to say that if I was not satisfied with their answer, my next stop would be a Cummins dealer.



Does anyone know of a Cummins dealer in Northeast Detroit area that has at least one really knowledgeable diesel technician???



Thanks, Chuck
 
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