Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Ethylene glycol versus propylene glycol

[Rammin]

Reading the Shadetree in TDR issue #35, page 80, on mixing ethylene and propylene glycol, I came away with some questions about stated facts.



The first was that ethylene and propylene glycol should not be mixed.



I called Fleetguard, a Cummins company, who have both ethylene and propylene. Their products technition said they can be mixed together with no problems.



The only difference is propylene has slightly less heat transfer than ethylene glycol. Also, a 50/50 mix of propylene and water has a 27 below protection opposed to the 50/50 mix with ethylene glycol at 34 below.



Propylene has to be tested with a refactometer or test strips, where ethylene can be tested for temperature protection with any off the shelf antifreeze tester.



Fleetguard puts the same additive package in both ethylene and

propylene glycol for cooling system protection.



I know D/C recommends ethylene glycol and the use of propylene may have warrenty issues. By the way, the Fleetguard tech. was surprised to hear that.



I took this one step further and talked to Cummins engine plant Customer Service in Indiana. They read to me their directive on antifreeze. They said propylene or Ethylene glycol can be used in the ISB.



I am not trying to say what antifreeze anyone should use, but with all the facts, a person can make his own decision.



This is why the TDR magazine and web site are so great. I bought a new 99 Dodge Cummins Q/c L/B 4/4 and found the TDR shortly thereafter. I have learned more in the 2 years since than I ever would have on my own.





Cummins Engine Plant 1-800-343-7357



Fleetguard 1-800-223-4583

 

[BK]

I've got an email into Cummins, they replied with a basic hazy answer. I asked about Prestone's 5/150... and their reply was you can use any antifreeze... yada yada yada... probably the same you heard. But they went on to say not to use extended life antifreeze to forego the regular change intervel and that the nitrites in the extended life coolants will void the warrenty.



BUT>>>>>>

I replied back with a second email, the reason I wanted to use the Prestone 5/150 was because it's the only coolant I can buy around here that says it has NO nitrites and such (as prescribed by Cummins) and that the DQ coolant has nitrites... so using DQ's coolant would void the Cummins warrenty. .

I dont want to use the 5/150 to extend the changes, just to get a coolant that meets their requirements.



Plus in their 1st reply they sited other coolant specs that the a coolant needs to meet of exceed. . and it seems the Prestone does but there's a one letter difference in the specs... In my second email I asked them to please decipher the specs for me since I dont have a hint...



I've been trying to get a reply to my second email from them with no success. Mailed it again this week.



Cummins !!! are you listening?

Answers that are contradictive and hazy don't help. Please don't just stand behind your manufactured answers... Answer the questions directly.

 

[Alan Reagan]

The two anti freeze types can be mixed, but there may be a degradation in performance or corrosion protection because of a possible difference in inhibitors in each antifreeze. Yes Cummins/Fleetguard says that either can be used. However, what they might have failed to tell you is that a COMPLETE flush of the system is required when changing from one to the other. If a complete flush is not accomplished, you may end up with some aluminum corrosion problems that you don't want because of the unwanted inhibitor reactions in the mixture. The main reason for the PG blend is the lower or lack of toxicity. Blend the PG and EG and that is negated. There is really no other advantage to using the PG. I would stick with what the truck came with to avoid introducing a possible problem with corrosion down the road. As a for instance, check this website:

http://autorepair.about.com/library/weekly/aa052601c.htm



You'll notice the problems caused in the V-8 Fords from mixing solutions.

 

[monkfarm]

pink antifreeze poisen to diesels!!!!no kidding!

I don't know if one of these is that red (or pink stuff) (extended life antifreeze) sold by GM and made by texaco but the pink stuff eats rubber gaskets. My peterbilt has an n14 cummins and it came with that and i started hearing rumors so i stopped in the cummins dealer in St. Paul and the shop manager told me if it was his truck he would drain out every last bit of it and put in the green stuff. He said texaco gives Cummins a kickback for every engine that is damaged that comes in. That's what i did. It's a crime they even manufacture the stuff but i guess it doesn't hurt sleeveless engines. ????

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

You mean you're supposed th change the antifreeze?



I never thought this much about it. I've always used the green ethylene glyocol in everything.

 

[BK]

As mentioned above I'm in the middle of emails with Cummins about this...

Here's their stance on Extended life coolents NOW:



Clip----------

"ELC (extended life coolants), all with nitrites, have been found to cause degradation of silicone seals and gaskets used in Cummins engines. Failures have been documented at mileage from 80K miles to 380K miles. The failures to date have occurred on N14 rocker housing gaskets and N14 oil cooler gaskets. Other failures have occurred at lower rates on B, C and M engine coolant system gaskets. Fleetguard's ES Coolant is fully approved for use in all Cummins engines.   We do not approve of other extended life coolants.



These seals have been in full production since 1991 with no failures when using other coolants. The seal material in use was rigorously developed for the million-mile engine and has proven to achieve this life. To protect our customers from premature failures of engine cooling system gaskets and seals, the use of these extended life coolants and its derivatives will not be allowed in any Cummins engine.



Further, it is to be understood that this action will not affect the Cummins, Inc warranty in general, but failures that are attributable to the use of these coolants will not be the responsibility of Cummins, Inc. .   It is the responsibility of the manufacturers of such products to ensure their compatibility with engines and cooling systems already in the marketplace.



Cummins, Inc will not consider warranty claims for failures caused by extended life (nitrite) coolants, if Cummins determines that the failure was caused by a non-Cummins approved coolant product.   Follow the recommendations of your owners manual or the Operation and Maintenance Manual for the ISB; coolant is so cheap, why bother with trying to extend the intervals on it?   (We assume - maye incorrectly - that you are using an extended life coolant to extend beyond the recommended change interval. )  Use the recommended type and follow the recommended maintenance interval. "

---------------------------------------------------end of clip



But the prestone 5/150 has no nitrites or silicates... . So I posed that question to them AGAIN in my 2nd email, cause they are saying that using the Prestone will void any warrenty claim associated with the use of ELC. . But the Prestone doesnt have any nitrites... ..... but it is an ELC. . so their broad statement about "ALL" ELC's shouldnt be correct. There's only one ELC they will allowed to be used, theirs...

The nearest Cummins dealer is 60 miles, into the city. . thats a 2 hour trip one way to buy stinking antifreeze.



It's going on two weeks since I asked for additional feedback and for them to directly address the issue of the coolent I can buy that has no nitrites of silicates, I havent heard back from them yet.



If they want us to use their antifreeze, start stocking it at Pepboys, AidAuto, AutoZone and so on.



Thats only about 1/2 of the email I got back from them, the real meat and potatos of the email... . if you want I can post the whole email... the rest is more of a hazy feedback and they didnt directly address the facts I pointed out. . hence my 2nd email and why I dont think they aren't sending a 2nd reply.



-Bob

 

[Ramboy]

Dang, I just did mine with Shell Rotella ELC. Guess I better check for nitrites in it.

 

[LAnthony]

bad information

I know that there are a million anti freezes out there and that there is some confusion about witch is best for the B engine. I can tell you that ALL the anti freeze from Cummins/Fleetguard is designed with an addative package for "wet liner" engines. The B is NOT a wet liner engine. There fore you need not worry about that kind of protection. Cummins does not insist that you use "there anti-freeze" They just insist you use one that meets there specs.

 

[LAnthony]

right out of the Cummins O/M manual

Antifreeze is essential in any climate. It broadens the operating



temperature range by lowering the coolant freezing point by raising its



boiling point. Do not use more than 50-percent antifreeze in the



mixture unless additional freeze protection is required. Never use



more than 68-percent antifreeze under any condition.



Use soft water in the coolant mixture. Contaminants in hard water



neutralize the corrosion inhibitor components. Water must not



exceed 300-ppm hardness or contain more than 100 ppm of either



chloride or sulfate.



Specifications - Use low-silicate antifreeze that meets



ASTM4985 test (GM6038M spec. ) criteria.

ASTM4985 test (GM6038M spec. ) criteria.

 

[BK]

Re: bad information

Originally posted by LAnthony

Cummins does not insist that you use "there anti-freeze" They just insist you use one that meets there specs.

Well I gave them all the specs on the Prestone 5/150 that to me. . a layman in regards to the spec and their revisions...

and they will only come out with the hazy feed back and a contridictive statement to the facts I gave them about the contents of the Prestone... Cummins "SEEMS" to be saying that all ELC have nitrites and it will be a warranty issue if you do use it in the engine.



Mean while they will only say that we only approve what DC sells (which is reported to be full of silicates and nitrites) and they will only recommend - by name - their own.



"Cummins neither approves nor disapproves products marketed by other companies. Cummins Fleetguard subsidiary supplies filters and coolant products and their products can be viewed on the Fleetguard page of Cummins website. Cummins specifically endorses the use of Fleetguard's Compleat, precharged coolants and Fleetguard's ES Coolant Extended Life antifreeze as indicated in Cummins Service Bulletin 3666132-01. "



Thats not right since it's not widely found.

 

[BK]

Re: right out of the Cummins O/M manual

Originally posted by LAnthony

... .

ASTM4985 test (GM6038M spec. ) criteria.

ASTM4985 test (GM6038M spec. ) criteria. .....

But whats the difference between



ASTM4985(GM6038M specification) (from Cummins)



Vs



ASTM D4985 & GM 6277M (from Prestone)



????



Does the "D" matter, is the GM6277M better than GM6038M?



I directly asked them about this and they avoided it on the 1st reply..... and asked again in my second email... .

 

[RustyJC]

Just for reference, when I went to Cummins Southern Plains here in Houston to buy some other stuff, I asked for their recommended anti-freeze for the ISB as used by Dodge. They sold me Pyroil (a division of Valvoline) low-silicate ethylene glycol. For whatever reason, they (admittedly a Cummins distributor, not Cummins per se) do not recommend use of coolants containing the DCA (diesel coolant additive) package in the sleeveless ISB. I don't think they were saying it would hurt anything, just that they don't recommend it if it's not needed.



JM2CW.



Rusty

 

[BK]

Staight from the Cummins email two weeks ago...



This is what they said about the additive package...

we with our B models don't need it cause we dont have a sleeve design..... but it doesnt harm our engines either. . just don't need it...

-------------

"Engines with replaceable cylinder liners require maintenance of the coolant to ensure that the proper amount of SCA (supplemental coolant additive) is maintained in the coolant to prevent cylinder liner cavitation/corrosion.   Failure to maintain the proper level of supplemental additive is the major cause of liner pitting, which is not a defect in material or workmanship, therefore not warrantable. This is not an issue with the B or ISB.



The Cummins B-series engines have a 'parent bore' block and do not have replaceable 'wet' liners, therefore do not require any SCA coolant additive. It can be used if the customer prefers, since it would not cause any problems. The additive that Cummins uses in wet sleeve engines is Fleetguard (Cummins subsidiary) product called DCA-4 (Dry Chemical Additive).   DCA-4 is a brand name for Fleetguard and is sold primarily by Cummins distributors and dealers.





Fleetguard also has a combined anti-freeze and DCA coolant called COMPLEAT that is ready for use without any mixing, which could also be used in the Dodge engine, however, again is not required. Other coolants or anti-freeze can be used in 50/50 or no more than 60/40 mixtures of anti-freeze and water. This mixture will turn to 'slush' at about 60 degF, therefore at climates colder than 10 degF, it is recommended that coolant heaters be used. "

----------







---Bob

 

[BK]

Update...



Just got off the phone with Cummins...



The gent on the phone (good guy, handled me well) said that the D in the spec means it is a newer spec and is fine with meeting the requirements for the engine.



The no nitrites and silicates is just perfect too.



So since the jug has that spec and no nitrites or silicates it's fine to use.



I also added that "I am not using this coolent to get an extend change and flush"..... they require you to keep normal change intervels. To tell you the truth I never trust manufacturers intervels, I like cutting them in half. So I have no problem there.



So they cant say "Prestone 5/150" is fine to use. .

but they he did say that "that coolent with those spec's is fine to use".



I asked about the general statement that I got , that ELC's except for their's, can not be used since "they all have nitrites"... and I got silence. I explained that the email I have from Cummins says I cant use an ELC. But yet the Prestone 5/150meets all the requirements... after a bit of talk I asked if the problem was that they can recommend other BRANDS over Cummins. .

Basicly he said that they cant recommend aftermarket brands.

Makes sense when your trying to sell your own.



He said he would go down and ask the guys that respond to the emails and see if they can send a reply to my questions that I posed to him and in the two last emails (both the same) I sent but they haven't answered.



I never in my life had soo much problems with selecting a coolent. . used to be if it was green and tasted good, gets some distilled water mix it up and put it in after a good flush.



:{



Bob

 

[LSMITH]

OK, more contradictory information. I have been to the Shell website and called them about the Rotella ELC.



The Rotella ELC IS a silicate free coolant, but it does have nitrites in it. Shell says it does meet the ASTM4895, which is what Cummins wants to see. But in one of the posts above someone said that Cummins wants a nitrite free formula. Shell will not say how much nitrite is in it.



My truck is full of Rotella ELC too. Not sure if it is a problem or not.

 

[Challenger-II]

I have too many other issues (ie. brake pads, air filters, oils) that warrant that much of my attention.



I keep it simple and just put in exactly what came with the truck! I dont care if it supposedly has the very stuff they say is bad ( although I doubt it )... . DC recoommends it and fills their trucks from the factory with it. Bottom line is that it wont void the warranty if you use DC coolant. I'll spend the extra couple $$$ and sleep at night.

 

[FL70CAT]

Originally posted by LSMITH

OK, more contradictory information. I have been to the Shell website and called them about the Rotella ELC.



The Rotella ELC IS a silicate free coolant, but it does have nitrites in it. Shell says it does meet the ASTM4895, which is what Cummins wants to see. But in one of the posts above someone said that Cummins wants a nitrite free formula. Shell will not say how much nitrite is in it.



My truck is full of Rotella ELC too. Not sure if it is a problem or not.

If you follow the spec the manufacturer calls fro than the hell with it. They can't do a damn thing if you're following their posted requirements.







DCA will not hurt the ISB, it is not required but neither is synthetic oil. It sure won't hurt.

I will continue to use DCA in every diesel I own as insurance against pitting, except for my Caterpillar motor which has CAT "ELC" in it now. Oo.

 

[BK]

Cummins directly sites the nitrites as the element that attacks the silicon seals. (just what 'monkfarm' experianced)



The lower the silicates the better, none = best, the silicates are what are reported to cause increased scaling and water pump failure.



RE; DC coolent... I read, but don't know 1st hand, that it contains silicates and in the mid 90's was causing water pump failures. Other things reported by people is that it contains nitrites too.

I have no proof either way, but it is a basic EG coolent like the basic green antifreeze I've used for years which I know is filled with both nitrites and silicates. Also DC reserves the rights to change where and what they buy and then private lable to sell to you. After your warrenty is up do you think DC cares? This is more of a long term issue... failures were "documented at mileage from 80K miles to 380K miles" due to the nitrites.

I agree that paying a bit more for the antifreeze isnt the issue, but getting the right stuff is. I wish it was easier than a 2 hour truck ride for me to get to a Cummins shop that sells it. I would buy it for security sake, cheap insurance. But since I cant get it locally, I need an option.

 

[dresslered]

I'm sticking with the Fleetguard CC2710 premixed which is a propylene glycol and is precharged with DCA4. This is what Cummins West was recommending at the time. I realize that the DCA4 is not required, but it is not going to hurt anything either.

 

[redram]

I went through all this 5 years ago. My 96 had the "over active" water temp guage and having previously owned an 89, I knew that the problem was not in the engine, but with either the guage, sensor, or sensor location, or thermostat.



In trouble shooting this over active temp guage (50 deg swing EVERY 20-45 seconds), I changed out thermostats first. It was then that I noticed that I had Solder bloom in the radiator with the OE coolant (green ethylene) in the first 20K of the truck's life.



Off Course Dodge said this was normal and would not even try to fix the over active guage back then nor the solder bloom.



4 years ago while exhibiting at the International Workboat Show in New Orleans, Texaco was introducing their Ursa Brand Ext Life Coolant. I jumped at it and put it in because I wanted something better than the OE crap that was causing solder bloom.

An year and 25K later, I was shown the Cummins Bulletin about the o-ring liner problems on the N14 and crap about the b series engines having problems. I contacted Cummins and wanted to know what parts in the B Series engine would be affected by this "bad" coolant. Never could get an answer from them so blew them off as just trying to sell Fleetguard products because 4 years ago, Fleetguard and the rest of the industry did not have an equivalent coolant to Texaco's ELC.



I also checked with the Texaco / Shell engineers and they confirmed that there was a problem in 6 N-14 engines but that the orings were replaced and no other problems have occurred.



To date, I have 80K + thousand miles and 3 + years on Texaco ELC Prediluted (not concentrate) and 136K on the truck and it works great. The truck runs 5-10 degrees cooler by the guage, does not cycle, and has suffered through one of the hottest summers on record in Houston 2 years ago (109 F) without any problems.



Cummins recommends a low silicate formulation. The Texaco ELC is a no silicate formulation. It also does not contain any nitrites / nitrates.



Point of clarification - The Texaco ELC is not propylene glycol based coolant but is actually an ethylene glycol based product with a different type of inhibitor package (carboxyate). I believe that Texaco is also rebranding this product for virtually any one who wants to put their label on it. At the Int'l Workboat Show this past Nov, virtually every diesel engine manufacturer was displaying this type of coolant under their brand name. This would include John Deere, Detroit Diesel / MTU, Cummins / Fleetguard, International/ Navistar, Caterpillar, Volvo - Penta were the ones that I remember.



Here is a News release that should clear up ELC type coolants.....

"Cummins approves Texaco Extended Life Coolant (TELC) for factory fill

(April 2001)

HOUSTON. Texas - Cummins Inc. has announced that Texaco Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze (TELC) is approved for factory fill in Cummins diesel engines.



Cummins Inc. , the world's largest producer of commercial diesel engines above 50 horsepower, and Texaco Lubricants, which manufactures Texaco Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze (TELC), also announced their joint technical teams have resolved technology issues that existed with previous use of the Texaco product as factory fill.



The Texaco Extended Life can be used as factory fill and service in all new Cummins ISB (B Series and ISBe), ISC (C Series), and ISL series engines.



Cummins has also approved the one-time addition of silicate to factory fills of Texaco Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze in N 14 and N 14 Plus engines; ISX and Signature engines; and ISM (M I I and M I I Plus) engines.



The coolant also can be used in all Cummins engines in aftermarket or service-fill applications - both drain and refill - as well as in off-road engines.



Texaco Extended Life coolants need only one addition of Texaco Extender in order to provide a service interval of 1,000,000 kms, 6 years or 12,000 hours for off-road applications. Texaco Extended Life coolants incorporate a patented carboxylate inhibitor technology and are intended for use in diesel, gasoline and natural gas engines. Texaco's special technology provides maximum protection of the basic metal alloys found in heat transfer systems. "

This was from Trucknes.com



Here is the product description from Equilon (re- Texaco)

http://thegenesisnetwork. equilon.com/genesis/prodinfopdf/out/HAVOLINE%20DEXCOOL%20EXTENDED%20LIFE%20ANTIFREEZECOOLANT.pdf



You will read that it is Nitrite / nitrate free!



Don't fret. Put the Orange / pink stuff in your trucks (flush the green stuff out first) and you will have the best of both worlds.