exact differences between 160, 180, and 215 pumps?

[Cummins Corvette]

I am so getting nowhere on this. I know there is someone here who knows this. Anyone?

 

[HoleshotHolset]

plungers, barrels, plate, camshaft grind, delivery valves... . just to name a few of the changes I know about.....

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Considering the labor to have a Bosch shop make all the changes, I can get you a new 215 pump cheaper.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Thanks Joe, but I already talked to you about getting a new pump. I would like to do it some day. It looks like Piers has the best price though. The pumps he is selling are new too, not rebuilt. I will never put another rebuilt part on my truck again.



Can't anyone tell me what is different in the 913 pump? Some people have told me that the 913 has bigger plungers than a 911 (11 vs. 12mm), and some have told me that they are the same (both 12mm). Is the only difference the cam? Also, I can't see how a cam can be self-advancing, unless there is some kind of mechanism between the cam and the gear that drives it.



The real reason that I want to know is it seems silly to just upgrade to a pump that is only off an engine rated for 35 more hp. I am not saying it isn't a great pump, but I would much rather upgrade to a pump from a 300 or 370 hp application if I am going to spend ever two grand. I know that these pumps have 13mm plungers, and probably better cams too. I don't know about the self advancing bit, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to get 3 or 4 more degrees of advance at high rpms. I could just advance the initial timing that much, and get the same affect. If you can get 600 hp out of a 215 pump, it seems logical that a LOT more could be had from a 300 hp pump.

 

[Sled Puller]

Yes, what is keeping us from finding a 370 marine pump and starting with that?



Somebody wake Piers up, we need the master for this one!

Gene

 

[DHRA]

913 vs 911

They have the same 12MM. The only thing that seperates them is the twist in the barrel. Piers answered this very question for me a year or so ago. The 911 pump we could only squeeze out 4** cc's of fuel and the 913 we could get 5** ccs. Confused us as we looked at everything inch by inch to find the differences, when in doubt call Piers!

 

[Cummins Corvette]

I have asked Piers, but all I could get was that the 370 pump doesn't work very well for variable speed aplications. So that sort of rules that one out. I know that there were 300 hp rv aplications though. That thing would obviously handle the vairable speed part. I also know that the marine pumps have 13 mm plungers, and that some custom racing pumps have these in them.



The thing that I am most curious about is:



WHAT ABOUT THE 8. 3 LITER APLICATIONS?



The C8. 3 uses the same pump! There are 8. 3's cranking out 450 hp from the factory! Tell me that pump can't crank out more fuel than a 215 pump. Those things must move some SERIOUS FUEL!



Anyone? Anyone? I wanna know!Oo.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

One more thing. If the only thing that is different is the barrels, then what is stopping us from just changing those? They can't be near as expensive as a new pump.



And still no comment on the difference between the 160, 175 and 180 pumps. What is the difference there?

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

The 370 pump will require more timing, but I am looking into one right now. It's at the Bosch shop being disassembled so we can check out all the goodies. I also got a super deal on a new 913 pump so have plenty of stuff to play with. Lessee, if CA is right, 609/215 hp means the 370 pump should give me 1048 hp Too bad, i doubt that will happen

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Hey Joe, good job! We may finally get some info now.



What about the C8. 3/450 pump? And other pumps from the 8. 3?

There has to be some cool stuff in there! 1048 hp, here we come! Oo. Oo. Oo. Oo.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

The P7100 is rated @ up to 94bhp per cylinder or 564bhp.....

How in the heck are we going beyond this hp rating?



More fuel, obviously... . but how is it happening?

So, in theory... . a C8. 3L - 450hp is close to maxing out the P7100?



I need to go to a Bosch class... . too much studying stuff I really am not interested in for the last 17 years of my education.....

Although, I'd get a 4. 0 in Tools and Techniques of Skirt Chasing!!





Matt

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Joseph Donnelly

Lessee, if CA is right, 609/215 hp means the 370 pump should give me 1048 hp Too bad, i doubt that will happen

I agree Joe, I doubt it will happen in Nevada, but in the midwest?



Well... ... ... ... :--)

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Maybe not 1048 hp, but lets shoot for 750 - 800 on #2 eh?Oo.

 

[KLockliear]

Re: 913 vs 911

Originally posted by Stack'd-n-Jack'd

They have the same 12MM. The only thing that seperates them is the twist in the barrel. Piers answered this very question for me a year or so ago. The 911 pump we could only squeeze out 4** cc's of fuel and the 913 we could get 5** ccs.

FYI, I've seen a 913 rock the test stand at over 1000cc's. Runs good on Lawrences' truck too.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

I just can't understand how a 215 pump is the king, while a 450 pump is overlooked. Does no one know anything about the bigger pumps? The only thing I have found out is that the marine pumps have 13mm plungers. ?????????

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Not overlooked. Just nothing special. I am looking into the potentially special stuff

 

[Cummins Corvette]

How can there be no "special" differences in a pump that comes on an aplication of over DOUBLE the horse power of the 215 pump? No offence Joe. But I just can't see how that is possible.

 

[Strick-9]

Chris,

I think there comes a point when a bigger pump doesn't help. There are so many other things going on that are equally, or more important for making power.



I don't think we're properly using all the fuel the 215 pump can deliver now.



If the 215 isn't the weakest link so to speak, maybe a bigger pump isn't the way to go just yet. Anyone can flood a cylinder with fuel. That doesn't make record breaking power though or we could all remove our camplates and make over 600 HP.



Although, I did talk to a pump shop two years ago about an 8. 3 pump replacement.



-Chris

 

[TxDieselKid]

Chris has a point.......

Along with what Chris said, the more fuel you dump, the more air you need with it. I think we are at a wall of adding more air, with a little room for fuel still. Think about the old gas racers, you would adjust it to run just right, not too lean, and not too rich.



Takes more then just #2 to make power. Timing, air, boost, cam profile, displacment, are just some things that are needed with just adding fuel.



Think about the marine use of a pump, long hours of the same throttle position, not idea for a Dodge.



Andrew

 

[Cummins Corvette]

You guys have a point, but there are more advantages to getting a larger pump. If you can get the fuel in faster, you will get a more complete and cleaner burn, and lower egt. I really don't think that we are at a wall on adding more air. If it can be justified by increasing fuel that much, I think staged turbos would have an incredible advantage on the power end of it all. Maybe a 913 pump can crank out 1000cc of fuel, but how many degrees of crank rotation is it taking to get all that fuel into the cylinder? I have been told that every mm of plunger travel (with the stock cam) results from two degrees of cam rotation. That means four degrees of crank rotation to achieve one mm of plunger lift.



How far does that plunger have to move to inject 1000cc of fuel? 1000cc per 1000 strokes (assuming those are all power strokes)=1000 cubic mm per stroke.



v=3. 14(r squared)h



1000=3. 14(6mm squared)h (12mm plungers)



1000=113h



h=8. 85mm



So (if I did that right) it is taking 35. 4 degrees of crank rotation to get all that fuel into the cylinder. Diesel fuel, by its nature, burns slowly, and I think getting all that fuel into the cylinder in say, half of the time, would substantially increase hp. It would also burn more completely, more efficiently (more mpg ), and lower egt.



This is all based on how I think it works, (in other words I could be wrong) and I hope that if I have made any mistakes, some of the pros will correct me.