exact differences between 160, 180, and 215 pumps?

[Strick-9]

That's a good point Chris. Yes, faster injection is better for power. But what limits the rate now? Is it just cam profile. Is it the injector tip? Is it the injector line restrictions? Is it the compression of the fuel? I think it's all of the above and probably more.



Using the same injectors and fuel lines wouldn't we need more pressure to get the fuel in faster? What pump puts out the highest pressure?



Diesels have notoriously been hampered by the lack of machining ability. The only reason diesels have finally taken off the past decade after a century of bad performance is because we finally have the manufacturing capability to run high pressures (20,000 psi) through an injector pump and have it live.



As this threshold is increased we get better running, more efficient diesels. I'm not up to date on the latest advances in technology, but that may be what's limiting us here.



I'm no expert, just throwing out some ideas here.



If you want quicker injection, have a custom cam ground. I'm sure Pier's has someone who can do it. Have one ground with a quicker rate of injection. That will increase the pressures for sure. I think it's about $500 for a ground cam and about $500 more to reassemble and balance the pump.



That's one of those ideas that's in the back of my head all the time, but I've got too much stuff going on and too little money to try them all.



-Chris

 

[Pthomas]

nice to see some real tech conversation!

Yeah! what he said!

 

[HoleshotHolset]

... . this is the stuff I L O V E !!



Matt

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

A much larger engine with higher horsepower rating does not necessarily mean the pump is bigger than the 215 hp pump. The 215 can flow more than the specs for some large earthmovers. If you buy me a 450 hp C engine pump, I'll check it out Meanwhile my Bosch man says they are nothing special for me. He knows how poorly my little Ram is running and how it is starved for fuel. He will help me any way he can



Are you guys forgetting that even with the little 12 mm barrels of the 215 pump, the injectors are still most likely the limiting factor? They just can't pass enough fuel before the piston has gone down the hole too far. That is why the pullers use such big injector holes, to get more fuel into the cylinders when it can be used. Even though atomization is relatively poor, enough of it burns, or so it seems. The rest gives you that nice smoke show The Erb Bros. put on a nice show for us with their 3- and 4-turbo'ed JD's at Tulare. Uhhh, that's John Deere, even though I have the same initials

 

[R.ebel]

More Power

I can see it now... two injectors per cyclinder Some time ago someone posted a picture of a P7100 type injection pump that was made for a 12 cyclinder engine. Wonder if that injector pump would fit on a Dodge, Hmm?Oo. Oo. Oo.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I've seen pics of an engine like that... .

P8-million series Bosch or whatever pump off a 12-cyl. diesel that was on an I-6... .



got fuel?



Matt

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Someone missed the part about the 13mm plungers. Those are going to push 17% more fuel than the 12mm plungers. Couple that with a more aggressive cam profile, and larger injectors. I really doubt that 370 injectors, bd 5s, or DD SMs are not big enough. Add those up, and that should yield a substantial increase in hp. You also need to take into consideration that if the fuel is being injected at greater velocity and pressure, that atomization is going to be better at all rpms. I really don't think that bigger lines will be necessary. Think about it. It is like a three-foot sewer pipe feeding a sprinkler head with the lines we have now. The only thing that it might do is increase the volume of potentially compressible fuel. The only part that might not work out is if the helix in the 13mm barrel has some negative characteristic.



One question that is still bugging me is: What is the difference between the 160, 175, and 180 pumps? This has been overlooked by concentrating on the bigger pumps. I would like to know just to have a better understanding of all of the parts that are available for the P7100. One of the things that makes me want to know is that Piers said that if he wanted to build a custom race pump, that he would use a cam from a 160 pump. That has always struck me as odd, unless that cam has a more aggressive profile, or has more total lift, or both. So what is the difference in these pumps?



Another is: If the only difference between the 180 and 215 pumps is the helix in the barrel, what is stopping us from just swapping the barrels?





Thanks Chris

 

[Strick-9]

Chris,

Barrels and plungers are made to such high tolerances they come in matched sets. This is old news and my memory may be fading, but I remember new barrels and plungers being something like $2000 installed and recalibrated. Cost prohibitive in my opinion. Maybe someone with more recent knowledge can update my figures. They seemed too high to be realistic to me, but you have to consider tearing a pump apart, reassembling it and then running it on a test stand to rebalance it.



I have no personal experience with 180 pumps, but I know 160 and 175 HP pumps have flat topped plungers while the 215's have a groove cut in them. This is to retard timing under high fueling rates.

The two small pumps do not have any timing changes under load.



I've been told that the difference between the rate of injection of on the cam itself as well as total lift between 160 pumps and 215 pumps is minimal.

The reason for using 160 cams is because they are cheaper to come by to grind down. Most of the grinding is on the lowering ramp of the profile. If you grind that portion down, the plunger gets down into the fill position sooner and has a better chance of being completely filled before the next injection occurs. That's the fill time issue you've heard about. I got to see a stock 215 cam at J&S Diesel in Vegas one day while I was visiting Lawrence of DD. There is a LOT of room for improvement of fill time on the cam from a custom grind.



I've found some slight differences in the linkage assembly that connects the throttle arm to the rack between my 913 pump (215hp) and my stock 160 pump. To get equal fueling as the 215 pumps the governor has to be set slightly more aggressively.



Cumminsgetme dynoed 446 with his 175 pump and then put on one of Joe's maxed out 215 pumps and put up 476. Not much difference in my opinion for the price tag.



I'm still tuning my 215 pump for max power. Once I get all I can in the next few months I'll install my 'baby' 160 pump to see exactly how much I can get out of it.



My gut feeling is there's not as much difference between them as some people would like you to believe.



Regarding the 13mm plungers, there is much more compression of the fuel than you would ever imagine. I think that's why the 13's don't seem to be the hot ticket. As more people buy them, we might learn more though.



-Chris

 

[Champane Flight]

It seems

It seems to me you guys are only addressing one faction of performance, fuel. I for one know that just because a diesel smokes, does not mean it is delivering max power. It just means you are overfueling. Many things effect performance on diesels. Sooner or later you will have to get into engine cam profiles, bore , stroke and head porting. After years of over the road trucking you learn where theres smoke on a diesel there is a dirty engine and lower power... ..... A nice light haze at the stacks is where the power is at.



It is nice knowing that the power is available for our 5. 9s . however, knowing how and where to use it is another thing all together. Draging from light to light or smoking out your yuppie tailgater isn't my idea of how and where to use it. Neither is sticking it on a dyno. Now if you want to put a load on it and head up the mountain? Now thats how to judge power... ... ... Go ahead and flame... ... ... ... ... .

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Champane Flight - you make a good point. Everyone has different reasons for wanting more power. You are also correct in that fuel is only one part of the equation. However, it is the only part that I want to deal with on this thread.



Chris- if the barrels and plungers are sold as matched sets, then that would definetely make swapping barrels cost prohibitive. But in talking with a shop that rebuilds them, they mentioned that if a plunger was damaged, that they just put a new one in. Perhaps they just didn't mention that they were also replacing the barrel with it. I have been told that a reason that the 913 pump is so good is that it advances the timing a few degrees as rpm rises. You are saying that it retardes the timing with increased loads? It seems like those two things would counteract eachother at high load/rpm and you would end up in the same place.

If the 911 and 913 have close to the same plungers and cams, then it wouldn't really be worth it to get a 913, unless my 911 bit the dust.



Anyone that has read my responce in the Diesel Dynamics/great service thread- you can use this as an example of why I really try to do my homework before I buy something expensive. If we are WRONG here, at least I will know WHY I WOULD want to buy a 913 pump!! If we are right, I just saved thousands of dollars. So far, it doesn't look like anyone with a 911 pump could justify spending 2200 or 3200 on a 913 regardless of how "special" it is. A person with an equally "special" 911 pump should be almost as well off.



Let the learning continue!! This is awesome!!! Oo. Oo. Oo.

 

[JIM S.]

back to the top

keep it up guys..... I have been wanting to know the same thing chris. Jim

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

>>Cumminsgetme dynoed 446 with his 175 pump and then put on one of Joe's maxed out 215 pumps and put up 476. Not much difference in my opinion for the price tag. <<



There are reasons why adding fuel via larger pump doesn't give the power increase you expect. With a diesel you need compression (and part of that is a good valve job) not just for what it does in a gas engine, but to heat the air and start the burning process. I have seen a loss of 50 hp from a worn out valve job--not one that is totally roached, just worn out after 75,000 miles.



There are some secrets, but I did not hold out on Cord (Cumminsgetme). Bolted onto my engine, it should give 600 hp just like the 913 pump I am using, my original pump with over 100,00 miles on it. All I assumed was that Bosch knows how to balance and calibrate their new pumps. As Cord does more stuff he should get more power out of that pump. As someone else noted, the fuel is only one part. You need to get that part sorted out, but then go on to other things.



From the other thread I see that Chris is down on DD. Well, they feel (rightly I think) that just because someone can ask a question does not mean the answer must be given. No one can doubt that their stuff works, because they have the dyno results. Similarly, the projects Lawrence and I have collaborated on were effective. Just check with the Ford guys who put on the Dyno Day last March when Sickly got 609. 3 and 609. 5 hp on #2 diesel fuel only.



Different trucks act differently, and it is easy to lose some hp when the air is bad, if all of it has to come through the turbo (no nitrous). Other stuff can be a problem too, and that is why Lawrence at Diesel Dynamics uses the dyno extensively to verify the power increases his customers pay for. Some other vendors also verify their products this way. BD Power and TST Products come to mind as two other shops that have in-house dynos.



In summary, I think it is fair for a customer to expect the promised power gains, or if no specific amount of power gain is promised, the product is what was advertised. As you get away from simple add-ons, it gets harder to predict the power gain exactly because other variables come into play and are not in the vendor's control. It is another thing to pursue the exact approach, adjustment specs, and parts relentlessly. It is yet another thing when someone uses one shop for advice, and then buys elsewhere, where there is little or no help available, because the price is slightly better.



Cost cutting has become a way of life, and is not all bad. It works with generic, standardized products and services. It doesn't work well with situations where expertise is critical, whether diesel power or building a bathroom correctly. If you are in construction, you know the difference between sheet rock, greenboard, and the "hardiback" board. You know if the worker doesn't add latex milk to the grout, you will have loose tiles later. The final product looks the same, but doesn't last the same.



Chris expects the answer to what parts are different in the three Dodge P7100 pumps. Your Bosch shop can show you their catalog. A very large number of parts have different part numbers across the three pumps. That is your answer. Sorry, that is all the Bosch factory tells their shops. Bosch expects the shop to order the correct bfactory part for the part number of pump they are repairing. Which parts work best? Which different parts have significant differences? You only find that out by trial and error; Bosch doesn't say. Someone has to spend a lot of time and money trying parts and by looking at parts inferring which ones are likely to improve fuel delivery. Who will pay the shop to do this? Why should those answers be free to everyone, customer and competitor alike?



Sorry to bore those who don't need this ranting. I just felt this thread and a few others needed some clarification as to why vendors keep information to themselves, and why I feel it benefits all of us. Without competitive advantage, the good shops can't stay in business. They can't do R&D while giving the cheapest price. they try instead to give the best value to their loyal customers. On the companion DD thread, a number of their customers responded favorably. It seems they ARE getting good value.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Joe- I was not questioning the validity of what you, or DD, or anyone has done in the area of r&d. I just have to know how something works, or WHY it does what it supposedly does. If customers stop asking questions, then what is to prevent a vendor (I'm NOT pointing any fingers here, just making an observation) from not actually doing what they are paid to do? An example is needed to show what I mean. Say you take your truck into Bob's performance diesel, and you tell Bob that you want more power. Well old Bob asks you what you have done to get more power and takes a look at your truck. He then tells you that you need a new exterior transducer unit, and that it will add 450 hp. He tells you that he has one in the back, and it will be 2000 dollars, and only take a half an hour. Meanwhile you can wait in the waiting room because he can't have anyone back in the shop for insurance reasons. So you go wait in the front while Bob puts a new transducer in your truck. Then Bob proceeds to slide the plate forward and adjust the boost elbow for more boost. A half an hour later, Bob comes up and tells you that it will be 2000 plus tax, and you're good to go.



How about another example. This time I will point fingers.

No one at DD, or anywhere for that matter, can tell me why, WHY, HELLO!! a 913 is better than a 911. The only reason I can see now is that they get a big wad of doe if they can sell me one.



Now calm down. I do not want another explosion from anyone here, but feel free if you really want to.



I just won't spend that kind of money on something without knowing why it is better. Just ask Kurt. I finally found a reason why the B1 costs so much, and I bought one.



If anyone wants to tell me why a 913 is so good, and can back that up with a good explanation, I will buy one. (Not for a while though, I'm poor at the moment)



If not, well, someone else will, and I will buy it from them.



There are no trade secretes here, it is just a bosch pump that you didn't make. The only trade secretes are in the modifications. If you are going to charge more than Piers does, then I want to know why. You don't have to tell me every detail, but an explanation like: "well this here pump can move 800cc of fuel, and a stock new with cheap mods like a #4 plate all the way forward and now delivery valves can only move 600cc. There were no trade secretes there eh? Just a REASON that your pump costs more than theirs. You can :{ , but that won't make you any money or friends.



Now PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZE don't any one take this personally.



Joe, I REALLY appreciate the help you have given so far on this topic, and I feel you are in the front position when I (and probably some others reading this thread) go to buy a new pump this summer. That is if anyone can give me an explanation of WHY a 913 is so much better, otherwise I really don't think that it is. The 911 and the 913 pump mostly have the same parts in them.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

This was supposed to be in my last post, but it got sawed off somehow:





Another thing that makes me skeptical is that you (Joe) said that when Cumminsgetme swapped pumps, you said that the pump he put on his truck would have made 600hp on your truck. Then it stands to reason that his origional pump would have made 570 hp on your truck. The tuning of a different truck is not the issue at here. The thing that I can't seem to find out is WHY the 913 is better than a 911.



Can anyone give me an example of someone taking off a maxed 911 pump, and with the only change made being the new maxed 913 pump, making $2-3k worth of additional hp?



Again, I really appreciate your help so far Joe. Please don't take this the wrong way. That goes for everyone else too.

 

[Strick-9]

IF the valve job was bad than it was bad on the 175 HP pump as well. The dyno's occured in the same place within two days of one another.



I know Cord wants to do the same thing I do. We are both going to reinstall the small pumps to compare. Maxed out versus maxed out.



Who knows what the 911 pump is? Is that the 180 HP pump?



There isn't much difference in my opinion. Not $2000 worth.

-Chris

 

[Cummins Corvette]

The 911 is the 180 pump. I just got off the phone with Piers. He said that the only differences are the fill rate of the cam, and the plungers have about 8 degrees of total advance. The 911, to the best of his knowledge, has about 4 degrees, and a slightly slower fill rate. All of the p7100 pumps have 12mm plungers accept the marine pumps. Ok, probably not worth two grand for a 913 pump.



Thanks to Piers for taking the time on the phone with me to answer my questions! That guy is great.



I am really looking forward to the pump comparisons by other Chris and Cord. That should be some extreemly interesting and useful data. Thanks for doing that!



Now another question for you guys. How much more fuel can be gained by taking the pump off of the truck and "setting the rack", or whatever it is called. Is there more potential fuel than that already available at my full rack travel now (ie no plate)?



Chris- in a thread about running with no plate, you mentioned that the internals of the two pumps where completely different. You said that running with no plate in a small pump couldn't hurt anything, but the 913 definitely needs a plate. Could you explain that a little? Thanks



Chris

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Again... . NICE thread!!



I can offer my thoughts on the 'no plate' issue, FWIW... .



I'm pretty sure that my rack is moving quite a bit as I have great big clouds of pure black happiness coming out my tailpipe when I really load it up and let it fly.....



Since I have all stock parts (with the exception of Piers' GSK... )... I don't think that I'm flowing enough fuel to even get 'full' rack travel or anything that is really scary. I could be wrong.....



I can hit 1550* (pre) if I lay into it for about 10 seconds..... the fact that I'm not pegging the gauge very quickly leads me to believe that I'm not getting the most rack travel possible... . but then I'm back at the injectors/DV/etc. issue... . with stock parts I can't get a lot of flow... . it's a reciprocal problem.



Matt

 

[Cummins Corvette]

If you are still running without a plate and with the afc housing all the way forward, you are difinitely getting full travel. I don't know what you mean about not having enough fuel to get full travel. Fuel has nothing to do with it. Rack travel controlls fuel, not the other way around.



Chris- please see my question in my previous post.



Thanks Other Chris

 

[Pthomas]

take out the plate and measure!

whats so hard about taking out the plate and measuring where the rocker tip on the governor lever is with full rack travel and then seeing if your deepest cut in the fuel plate is at this point when installed?

then making sure your afc lets it get there too?

then the fun is getting the governor to let it get there when you want it to!

 

[HoleshotHolset]

From previous readings here on the TDR I remembered that unless you are flowing a ton of fuel the AFC won't allow the rack to get full travel.....



OR:



Since I'm not flowing gross quantities of #2 - my AFC isn't moving as much as say someone who has upgraded parts, therefore my rack isn't moving as much as it is capable of moving...



Lots of fuel = lots of boost (with no wastegate). Lots of boost moves the AFC more than normal = even more fuel to help further the cycle.....



Matt