Extended oil change on '93 with 5.9 Cummins

[GHarman]

I have been using UGLY very sparingly since I received this old truck from Dave Valentine, in 2009.
In 5+ years, I have about 13,000 miles racked up. The miles however, are HARDER than average, mostly in 4X4 and generally low speed. Lots of dirt roads, mud and snow. I seldom get the transmission in 5th gear! Limited highway driving, <10% of the miles. I want to see what I can expect from this truck, at least from the motor, before I start any extended plans for repairs.
The point of this thread is to post the results of todays oil analysis. Analysis by Speedco in Commerce City, Colorado. Base line is that the oil has been in the motor for one year. Mileage is about 2000 on the oil. The oil is 15W-40 Amsoil HD Diesel/Marine.
Wear metals (ppm);
Aluminum-3
Chromium-<2
Copper-22
Iron-6
lead-8
Tin-<2
Silicon-10
Potassium-9
Moly-<2

Physical properties (ppm);
Water-<0.1
Oxidation-24.5*
Viscosity-NA ?
Glycol-ND
Fuel<2.0
TBN-8.8 (New oil starts out at 12 TBN)
Nitration-2.2
Soot-0.1

Footnotes per documentation; *All engine wear rates normal. Viscosity is not available due to unknown oil weight(inability of machine to accept parameters).
Sample appears free of external contamination. Moderate degree of oxidation indicated. Suspect high operating temperatures and/or over extended oil drain interval. Accuracy of diagnostic statement limited due to unknown or "incorrect oil weight entered". Oil drain and refill may be necessary.

I do use a fuel additive all year long. MOF it really helps with the smoke, as this motor is loaded with Dave's personal touches:-laf!
SO, for the near term, the truck gets another oil change sometime in the next few days! UGLY Rides again Oo.
In no way am I recommending that You do this with Your truck. This is information only. Questions? Ask away! I check in every few days!
See Ya in the Funny Papers

GregH

 

[JR]

Hey there Greg,

Did you take your sample after the truck had been running and the engine was at operating temp? The fuel dilution at <2 is probably what they consider average but to me it seems a tad high for oil with such low miles on it (why I asked about the temp of the oil when sample drawn). For comparison, I have never seen anything higher than <0.5 after 20k miles on my oil. Nothing to be concerned with I don't think, it may simply be a result of your shorter trips especially if the engine doesn't get to full operating temp before it gets shut down.
Given your next sample checks out ok, I would certainly run it longer than 2k miles, or if your set on changing every year consider going back to a dino oil to keep costs down. That stuff is expensive to dump at such a short interval!

Take care

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

I was at a Cummins Power Booster meeting about 10 years ago and there was a Cummins Engineer there that was part of the original design team on the 5.9 Diesel engine. One of the things he said was that an extended oil change such as 13,000 miles was that the engine will never recover from that oil change. That being said I think that many of us have "over extended" an oil change with no perceived engine problems. I too use Amsoil and all your numbers look good. The two problems I see is their inability to get a weight rating on the oil and the TBN 'Total Base Number" both seem to say that the oil is long over due for a change.

Amsoil recomends - I believe - is once a year or a maxiumn of 12,000 miles max. Dodge recomends a max. 6,000 miles in with normal driving and more frequently with heavy useage, such as you described in your post.

If it were me I would take another sample when you get to 1,000 miles. Just take a sample do not change the oil and see what comes back trom that test.

Bob

 

[JR]

Am I missing something Bob? He is showing a TBN of 8.8, still well above the minimum of >1.0.

Is Amsoils recommendations assuming your not going to perform a UOA and simply dump your oil? I see no reason why you couldn't safely push well beyond the mileage and time frame if you have UOA to base your decisions off of, but then again I am not at all familiar with Amsoil, I am simply going by my experience with Schaeffer's.

 

[Newsa]

Been looking onto adding an Amsoil bypass filter. Not so much tl extend oil changes, just to reduce particulates.

Is this a good idea?

 

[GHarman]

JR,
The oil was well warmed up. The trip to town to get this done is one of the few times it gets out on the road. The oil testing shop is about 50 road miles, one way.
On the way home, I topped off with fresh fuel and additive. The fuel mileage is good, for what modifications that have been done to the engine and the stop, start mixed driving required. 18.7 MPG hand calculated, for todays jaunt. The cost , to get that oil analysis was $19.65. The drive through rush hour traffic in an industrial area of N.E. Denver was not my idea of a good time.
It is possible that this year I may put more miles on the truck, driving my Son to school. Depends on the weather and how much snow we get. Its been cool and wet this summer!

Bob! I will consider doing that analysis again about midway through the year. One issue with the service provider is that the diagnostic machine is not able to take some data. It is an older machine that supposedly is going to be replaced. There is no parameter for the 5.9l Cummins engine Light Duty Truck category, does not accept oil viscosity correctly! It is a piece of junk as far as I am concerned. But it did give me enough information to make an educated decision. Now! If the rest of the truck will hold up! Ha Ha!
PS, The viscosity is an an operator plug-in parameter. She had some trouble setting up the machine. Hopefully they will have a new one by January or so!

GregH

 

[GHarman]

Newsa,
IMHO, FIRST Have a motor oil analysis done to see if you need that filtering system. Look at what the oil chemistry is under normal operating conditions
GregH

 

[JR]

Been looking onto adding an Amsoil bypass filter. Not so much tl extend oil changes, just to reduce particulates.

Is this a good idea?

It certainly couldn't hurt provided it doesn't do anything to your powertrain warranty (I have no idea if it does, just saying to make sure before you add an aftermarket accessory to your truck).
It used to be with the older diesels that running a good quality oil and a bypass filter could safely net you 10s of thousands of miles with UOA's to provide data, but the new emissions has changed all that. From what I have seen on the new trucks a big part of the oil change interval is based on % fuel dilution, and no bypass system will remove enough of that to make enough of a difference to justify the addition of one based soley on that aspect. But it will remove contaminants that the full flow filter can't filter, and any engine will benefit from that.

 

[Newsa]

Good points. Most of the year I do short drives. Might look into running 20W-50 instead of 15W-40 to combat oil dilution viscosity issues. I will drive only 10 k per year.

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

JR
The reason I suggested an analysis due to TBN and viscosity numbers is the fact that Viscoity was N/A and I have never seen a TBN under 12.0 in multiple tests over a 8 year period. It triggered a potential problem in my head:.

GHarman
With the limitations of your current test facility I would also suggest you might try another facility. Genos Garage has a test kit and the lab they use is a state of the art facility.

I will go over my old analysis on Thursday and post the averages so that they can be compared JRs results.

Bob

 

[DVolk]

How dirty is the oil at 2,000 miles ? on my 92 running Delo 400 is not dirty at all with 2,000 miles if its dirty id do a change at 500 miles or do a fill run and change job

 

[GHarman]

DVolk,
The oil is discolored and clear.
Unless I was using Rotella or Delo or some such Walmart dino oil.
Amsoil is to expensive to dump, run, dump and refill. Not an option for me.

I'd LOVE to put an NV4500 in UGLY, as You have in Your signature!

BOB,
Thanks for the info on GENOS and their test kit! Looks like a far better test option.

GregH

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

Here are the avreage numbers from 30 oil changes since I bought my '93 in Jan of 1993.

Iron 20.6
Chromium 2.93
Nickle .07
Alumininum 4.33
Copper 1.70
Lead 3.97
Tin .80
Cadminum .00
Silver .03
Titanium .00
Vanadium .00
Silicon 5.13
Sodium 4.50
Potassium .00
Molybdenum 6.83
Antimony .00
Manganese .10
Lithium .00
Boron 22.83
Magnesium .10
Calcium 3563.43
Barium .53
Phosph. 1130.80
Zinc 1291.63
Fuel 0.05
Soot 0.06
Water 0.00

TBN 12.3
Oil Amsoil 15W40 Marine Diesel - All numbers were well within normal range.

Bob

 

[RSchwarzli]

I am going to pipe in here with my 10c Canadian (that is still like 2c US so all is good).

One of the biggest killers of oil is actually the moisture in it. If you start and stop the engine before it can burn off the condensation that can form in the engine (hot/cold cycles), then you water log your oil. One step worse than fuel delusion. Even if you never get in 5th, as long as the engine is getting good run time, then the moisture will burn off. Worse is the start stops before it is even up to temp. In those cases I recommend more frequent oil changes.

Part two, for the sake of $45 for an oil change, I run a oil change every 5,000 km. If I do a lot of idling, then I may follow the the hour-meter and do a change earlier than 5,000 km.

I also run oil analysis as well as element inspection and this procedure seems to work well for me so far. I know it is not much mileage compared to what you all run, but I look at the miles I put on the truck in a year and deduce that an extra 2-3 oil changes in a year for guaranteed protection of engine is worth the ~$150 a year.

 

[RWherley]

I change my oil every 5000 miles witch only takes me about 2 months to rack up, running shell rotella with the lucas oil stabilizer add to it.

 

[DVolk]

I say it all depends on how you drive and the conditions of driving , hot cold towing etc ...

 

[GHarman]

Shell Rotella T runs through my '93 truck motor like bugs through a goose! I tried it, when I got caught shorthanded.
All the seals open up. and it leaked everywhere#@$%!.
I've been using this Amsoil product since I put the first 15,000 my '91.5., back in the Fall of 1991.
When I got the '93, it leaked, thinking I would need to rebuild the vacuum pump and seals. I switched motor oil over to the Amsoil 15W-40 HD and Marine. The leaks stopped after a few runs up and down the mountain !!! That oil does not require a "stabilizer". Back when I was driving my truck a lot, I did change my oil every 7000 miles, or less if I racked up a lot of dusty driving. Now, I don't have the need, as I see it! Don't have the miles and the chemistry still looks good. (with a Good air filter and oil filter) Planning to do the annual change, soon. I will do an oil sample, more often. As has been suggested
With temperatures below zero and no way to plug it in during the winter, I prefer the synthetic. With a pour point at -38*F. During the Winter months the issue is getting the motor up to operating temperature., as has been mentioned. I will make at least one run a week at operating temperature to evaporate any accumulated moisture and keep the fuel in the tank, stirred up. I try to keep the tank topped off with as little freeboard as possible to eliminate condensation in the tank.
Its what works for me! Never had a failure to start, or any other fuel or Motor issues.
I need oil to be an enhancement to my machinery. I am willing to pay a little extra for that enhanced performance. I will push that performance to the hilt! I am Not interested in a basic, throwaway quick, minimum spec. oil that can be made to work, with a "stabilizer"! A little sarcasm aside:-laf. I would really love to see a unbiased scientific comparison between the top rated Diesel motor oils, with and without their additives. Similar to the study posted on TDR about the lubricity of fuel additives. Course, our old trucks are so far behind the new tech that I doubt I would ever see anything like this published. I still have friends that swear up-and-down that 30W Dino Diesel oil is the ONLY oil and it needs to be changed every 3000 miles or three months:--)! Theres no arguing with that!
My point was never to argue. Just posting my results for my situation, unless I see a significant negative reading in my next oil sample chemistry, I will carry on! The suggestions have been helpful and I will certainly use two; Sample more often, pay attention to accumulated moisture in the oil on short runs and optional sources for oil sampling! Thank You All for the suggestions!
One thing that I am still in a fog about is the "minimum TBN" Cummins Recommends vs the TBN (12 new and 8.8 after one year) of the oil I am using
Respectfully,
GregH

 

[DVolk]

If you read the magazines ( trucking ) they claim oil can go way more miles than 7,000 in big rigs Delo 400 can go 40,000 miles and the same for valveoline blue aka cummins Blue my oil at 10,000 is nice and clean

 

[TAchterberg]

FWIW ... I work for one of the largest private fleet trucking companies in the country (over 6,000 trucks). We run Mobil Delvac 15/40 in all of our trucks (Cummins & Detroit engines), and it gets changed every 45,000 miles.