EZ + Injectors

[XJSuperman]

Just thinking ahead here. Been running the EZ for a little while and am very happy with it... but want to make a little more. Having seen what the TST will do to EGT's with the stock turbo I do not want to go that route stacked with the edge or even by itself... as I intend for a long while to stick with the stock turbo.



I was thinking some injectors. #1) Can 'upgraded' injectors be used with the EZ?



#2) if yes to #1 ... what would be a good, reliable and not overly $$ set to get me in the 350 HP or a little better at the rear wheels... I'm at 295 HP 562 ft/lbs now.





#3) If I can use injectors with the EZ... should I install them without unhooking the EZ... OR pull the EZ, put in the injectors and run it for a short while... then put the EZ back in?



#4) What are some other options to get another 50-100 RWHP for reasonable $$ and still be reliable.



Thanks,

Jason

 

[PatrickCampbell]

You're doing 295 HP 562 ft/lbs now with a HO and an Edge EZ on what level? My SO puts out that much power with an Edge EZ on level 4.

 

[DLeno]

There are lots of guys running EZ plus injectors with very good results -- just not with the stock turbocharger. check out the diesel dynamics web site and study their truck configurator application there. you'll get a good sense of what's requred to support this combo -- it requires a turbocharger upgrade. But they also say that 350HP is doable with just the box -- which I don't quite get, but thats what they say!



Also have a visit with Piers Diesel Research. they have some experience there and could give you some advice on getting more power than your EZ can provide. I suspect the advice will not be very attractive if you want to keep the stock turbo.



But I gotta agree that 295HP with an EZ box on level 4 doesn't sound right. You should be at 325+. unless you're on a Mustang 250 . The EZ should net you 65 HP at the rear wheels, and the stock truck is in the 260HP region at the rear wheels -- so the EZ should get you to 325 or so.



But injectors would give you more fuel than the turbo can handle. you wouldn't be able to use that power except for very short bursts. In my experiments, just the EZ can make EGTs go too high running empty. any more fuel and the HY-35 is starting to spit nickels.

 

[Patriot_RAM]

I had to have a little more so I took the chance and turned my EZ up to level 5 on my '03. I think I might try the DD2 or DD3 injectors with my Edge and stock turbo since I'm in the same position as you.



Keith, if you're around, can the DD2's be later modified to DD3's, and if so, how much is the cost? Also -- Do you offer reprogramming of the Edge box with your program so I would have the zero horsepower setting to use it as a boost fooler until I'm able to upgrade my turbo?



Thanks!

 

[PatrickCampbell]

So injectors+Edge EZ won't work ?? Even on Level 1? What is it that puts the stock turbo over its limits?

 

[XJSuperman]

The truck was run on a mustang dyno (not sure which version??) Would someone explain which type of dyno might actually be correct... it seems we get a lot of different numbers.



A stock 600 was dynoed and only put up 235 HP. I thought 20-30% was about right for the drive train loss... and this number is right in that range. So mine would be a little less being a 305/555 stock at the wheels right???? This means the edge claim of 70 HP was about right on since it put me back to 295.



I'm curious now... . But if the 295 is right... then DD1's should be perfect. Should still be within stock turbo limits??

 

[PJereb]

You may consider the $400. 00 Piers turbo upgrade.



They machine the front compressor housing to accept a larger pinwheel and install their extreme bearings and finish up by 0-balancing the wheels and shaft.



That is my next upgrade, because with the EZ things can get mighty toasty at WOT under load.

 

[PJereb]

I also ran on a mustang dyno, I ended up with 317/645 on level three at the wheels, and that was on a 90 degree afternoon, with a lengthy exhaust snorkel venting the small cloud outside.



Stock numbers were 255/510.



You are probably much closer to 350 than you think.



Peter

 

[DLeno]

Patrick I'm sure EZ on some level with injectors will work with the stock turbo. But EZ on level 4 plus DD2's is like 400 HP to the ground.



XJ: I mentioned Mustang 250 because this one is known to have tire slippage problems and low HP numbers due to the small single roller. I think you may be close to 325 HP. I think 20-30% is too high for drivetrain loss. But some dyno measurements would be useful. I think its more like 15%. higher losses for the dually. But we should see some dyno numbers to be more confident. DD has the 305HP HO stock engine at 285 RWHP! thats way low, at about 6% loss. Kieth maybe you could help us out here and tell us what that number means and what you guys find the drivetrain losses to be.

 

[XJSuperman]

It wasn't a single roller dyno. It had 4 rollers ... 2 on each rear wheel.



I'm kinda wondering myself now...



I do know my tires did not slip.

 

[DLeno]

huh. I dunno. but consider that there are several variables in the dyno measurements themselves and you have to be careful interpreting the numbers. I don't want to start a dyno war, because both load dyno's (i. e. Mustangs) and acceleration dynos (i. e. dynojets) have their strong points. I'm not an expert, but from what I gather from visiting with others, it appears that there can be more variability in the way the test is conducted and the machine is calibrated than there is in the namplate on the side of the unit. But both styles are widely used by respected companies in the performance business.



I guess its possible that your truck's stock output is low. But measuring it accurately and convincing someone of that fact is a different story. You'd have to have more than one stock truck measured on the same dyno in order to have any confidence that your truck makes less HP than it should. My approach is generally not to believe the enhanced peak numbers until/unless the stock numbers make sense. you gotta apply a reality check, one of which is that the stock HO truck should make about 250- 260RWHP and presents on the order of 15% drivetrain loss.



My first tendancy on this is to suggest that an EZ on level 4 on a stock HO should be in the 325 RWHP region. But every truck is different. And to add to the confusion, I note that DD's dyno graph shows their stage 3 injector kit making 400 RWHP and they are listed as 100HP injectors. that implies that the stock truck is 300 RWHP and we know that can't be true. So you gotta be careful when you interpret numbers.



Reminds me of my efforts to correlate rail pressure with horsepower from trying interpret manufacturers claims for fueling boxes. You just can't do it. So I'm out to measure it myself by comparing differenc boxes on the same truck.



But getting back to the original issue -- A red flag goes up in my mind at the suggestion that the stock turbocharger could handle more fuel than the EZ on level 4. I just don't think its gonna happen (reliably, or for more than short bursts). The Piers modified stock turbo might be a good option -- check those guys out. Any way you look at it, more fuel than the EZ is going to require more than stock air. Note that the guys succesfully running the EZ and injectors have also replaced their turbochargers.



PJereb's numbers appear to be right on the money. The EZ on level 3 is about 60HP which would put the stock truck at 317-60 = 257. Now when the dyno iteself measures 255 stock you know the numbers make sense. love it when that happens...



I'd say if you want to be over 325 RWHP with as little turbocharger as possible, you may be maxing out even the Piers modified. but give them the last word...

 

[XJSuperman]

The way it was described to me was to add about 40 HP to these numbers I have to get what an 'acceleration' dyno would have told me... which put the truck in the 330 RWHP range on that type of dyno.



One thing I am trying to figure out also is where the dyno RPM test range should be for the cummins.



With the runs we made the "test window" did not begin until just under 2100 RPM's. Which I thought was high... I figured with the cummins it would start much lower since the torque peak is around 1500 RPM? Am I right in my thinking. With that said it seems I;d have seen a fair bit higher numbers as it is my understanding that it is the torque that is measured and then the HP is calculated? Or do I not know what I'm saying?



I really want to figure this out before I do anything else major to the truck... mostly for curiosity's sake. The truck will pull me back in the seat HARD under WOT so it doesn;t seem to be underpowered in any way... plus before I put the EZ on I could keep up no problem with other trucks of the same setup.

Also... a bone stock 600 was there and ran 235 RWHP... so I know (or at least hope) my truck isn't down on power ... it seems the variances may be in the way the test was run since both my 555 and the other fella's 600 ran much lower than most are saying they should.



I do appreciate the input... this is a great discussion

 

[DLeno]

I have seen generally lower numbers from the Mustangs than the Dynojets, which appear to (to me) to excel in the accurate absolute measurement of peak horsepower. A couple of my aquaintances in the race world swear by the accuracy of the dynojet and that it correlates well with real world performance. Others, as I say, swear by the accuracy of the Mustang. There's enough art in the measurement that I'm convinced either can be used as long as you understand the measurement. thats why you just can't take a number from dyno #1 and compare it with dyno #2 without a significant correlation work. One story I'm aware of is that a major truck mfg company tried to calibrate their own dynos around the country by sending a calibration truck around as the gold standard. it didn't work.





But since your Mustang shop knew that the Dynojet would read higher, this confirms in my mind that your truck is where it should be -- about 325 HP at the rear wheels. By the way, Diesel Dynamics / Edge are two companies that are very Dynojet centric in the way they express horsepower. I generally use their numbers as a stake in the ground.



Yes, the load dyno measures torque directly and then calculates horsepower from engine RPM. 2100 RPM is high but not uncommon. At lower RPMs the turbocharger might not have spooled up completely. Too bad they didn't start at high RPM and work downwards -- thats a "trick" if you will, but useful for the towing situation (as opposed to the racing situation).



the torque peak with the EZ on there is significantly higher than 1500 RPM. on the stock truck there is no peak -- it is flat (essentially) across the entire range.

 

[BRayls]

I towed with 40 hp injectors and the ez on level 1 ,load about 5000 lbs. and on flatland no egt problems. however they were high(1380). which is what I could do on my truck with the ez on 5. the injectors are much smoother power. I need to update the sig,as I swapped out the 40's for stockers,be going to dd 2's maybe 3's,in the spring when I do a turbo swap.

 

[XJSuperman]

OK... I think I understand. My number aren't low considering the type of dyno I ran. And based on adding 40 (give or take) HP to the numbers I have... which hypothetically puts me at 325 (give or take) RWHP on the type of dynos edge and DD use.



So according to the numbers put up by edge and DD I would have to upgrade the turbo... OR turn down the edge if I added other power mods.



Now my question is... since we as diesel trucks are more or less concerned with torque... moreso than HP... . Am I correct in thinking my rear wheel torque should be somewhere in the high 600's to low 700's? The mustang dyno I ran put it at 562 ft lbs.

 

[DLeno]

horsepower at the rpm of interest is what is important.



HP = (rpm x torque)/5252



see this article about fueling boxes. I have some HP versus torque discussion in there.

 

[BRayls]

thats how to spot a fake dyno chart. the point at which the two curves cross,always 5252. now us diesel guys never see that rpm so. that always had me stumped,how can you measure hp on an engine that never sees the 5252?running an engine dyno that was running 7000+ rpm we aways got the rpm for convertion. growing up around racing I was aways told hp is nothing more than a figure of torque excellerated

 

[DLeno]

how can you measure hp on an engine that never sees the 5252?

well thats easy: on a load dyno you measure torque directly at the rear wheels by how much the rollers push back on the wheels. You calcuate engine RPM by using the known drive train gear ratio, tire size, and roller speed in mph. then convert the x axis from mph to rpm, and calculate the HP curve from the torque curve using the formula.



on an acceleration dyno, horsepower is provided directly by the dyno itself because it knows how fast the drum accelerates from one speed to another speed, and much time elapsed to perform that work. Oh wait thats what horsepower is -- time to peform work. So the acceleration dyno provides horsepower directly. Anyway, then you do the reverse -- convert the x axis to rpm as above, but calculate the torque curve from the horsepower curve provided by the dyno.

running an engine dyno that was running 7000+ rpm we aways got the rpm for convertion. growing up around racing I was aways told hp is nothing more than a figure of torque excellerated

thats meaningless technobabble.



Just because two curves cannot cross due to physical constraints doesn't mean the calcuation is not meaninful. Horsepower is moves trucks and pulls trailers up hills, and you don't need to see 5252 RPM to calculate horsepower or to validate your results. Its really not rocket science: horsepower is the rate of doing work -- how fast something accelerates or the time it takes to pull the load up a certain hill. horsepower to the ground is what matters, and you can see by the formula that it doesn't really matter (to the vehicle) if you do that with 1000 ft. lbs of torque at 2000 rpm or 500 ft lbs at 4000 rpm. the result is the same power to the ground.



the problem is that we get caught up in engine peak horsepower or peak torque specs. just get back to basics and realize how the formula works and what it means.

 

[BRayls]

So are the majority of the dynos, most here have tested, just as accurate as the drag strip? With just a guess from et and weight? Technobabble maybe, but I am just trying to find out just how real these numbers are. My dyno experiance was not guessing on rpm we had it measured. Please don't slam me Doug I am just looking for facts.

 

[DLeno]

sorry, no slam intended. A lot of work goes into correlating dyno results to the 1/4 mile performance, and I don't claim any particular expertise there. If you can get x horsepower constant to the ground it is relatively straightforward physics to determine 1/4 times and speeds, etc. But the problem comes in accounting for all the variables, adjusting your formula accordingly, etc.



to answer your question indirectly (no direct experience here) I'm aware of a couple of guys involved in racing and they swear by the accuracy of a properly operated Dynojet. As to how those numbers correlate with popular rules of thumb and 1/4 calculators found on the web I'm afraid I don't know. Its a great study (comparing dyno numbers to 1/4 performance) and I'm afraid I'm not involved deep enough to give you a direct answer.