Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) EZ plus Power pack

[ThrottleJockey]

C. Miller



I gotta go with the Hohn school of thought on bombing the CTD. I'm going to order a TST PMax to go along with my PDR HX-40 16.

Read Hohn's post above and then go out and take a long hard look at your truck.



Like what you see? Now let me describe mine to you.



It's a $36,000. 00 driveway statue. It used to be white. Now it's a sooty oily glazed over color. You turn your key, you get the world's finest sound. I turn my key, I get squat.



Hohns' got the recipe for a bombed rig that will put a smile on your face for many safe, strong years. The people at Pittsburg Power agree with him 100%. They recommend the exact same set up. Why do you think all the big HP pulling trucks LOWER their compression? I'll let you in on a little factoid. My engine is at Schied's in Lafayette, they have one of the most insane sled pullers ever built. The compression? Get this, 10 to 1. I thought 15 was low! At 190 psi, that's the way it's got to be.



You CAN'T have high compression AND advanced timing AND high boost... ... ... ... Boom. Don't be a baby bomber like I was.



ETH, ETC, N-14, C-16, 12. 7 Detroit, old 444 NXT Cummins or the new Mercedes and Cat's Acert Twin turbo..... a diesel is a diesel.

Let's pretend yours will do the same thing and be safe.



Brian

 

[Bob Wagner]

another great post Brian

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Thank you Bob!



Snowin up there yet? Snoqualamie (spelling??) is cool in the summer!

 

[cummin2pass]

The TDR is great. I like it more than the Discovery channel.

Thanks for the help everyone. I'm glad I made the post. I will not be down the stacking road.

 

[C.MILLER]

Brian,

Thanks for all the info. I'll take the EZ off for now, so I can still have the use of the Banks gauges that are controlled through the Ottomind. Hate to have to spend more $$ on another box, but the Ottomind just doesn't do it for me.

 

[Hohn]

I just wanted to mention that I came to my conclusions on the timing aspect by reading a LOT of posts and by also running my EZ disconnected for awhile (boost fooler only).



Guess what-- by dummying the EZ, I didn't lose or gain any peak boost! Now, the EZ will only operate within stock fueling levels, so you would be tempted to say this make sense and all is well.



Well, think about it. If you advance the timing, you should have marginally lower egt (more time for it to burn). Since you have lower egt, you should also have slightly lower peak boost as well, right? Well, I am not sure, but that's my reasoning.



The main reasons I think the EZ and my 2s is a little too much timing is 1)Keith at Diesel Dynamics said so, and that's why their DDTTPM has less timing (for use w/ their injectors) and 2) that timing clatter I get from my engine tells me that it's not so happy.



I am NOT worried about hurting something on my engine with my combo. While the DD2s and the EZ might be too much timing, the fact that I didn't gain any peak boost by disconnecting it tells me that it's right near the ragged edge.



I am of the mind that at 32psi of boost, my peak cylinder pressures are more like I had 35-38 psi of boost. Still safe for the CTD, but no point in pushing it. My engine is having to work a little harder than it should for a given HP level, maybe.



But the fact that I live over 6K" elevation also helps to reduce peak cylinder pressures, so I end up not worrying about it at all.



I would NEVER run a larger injector than the DD2 with an EZ, and NEVER combine any two products that affect engine timing electronically.



Although I have to admit there are many who are running a stage 3 or bigger injector w/ the EZ and it's just fine. The reason? The poor atomization of the truly large injectors slows down how fast combustion occurs, thus lowering peak cylinder pressure (and raising peak EGT).



In the scheme of things, DD2s are a pretty mild injector, so I feel I am safe for the above reasons. However, I feel that those guys who are running stg 3 and up are really gambling when they start bumping timing way up.



NO STACKING FOR ME!!! Ask CROTH of BD-Power what happens when you have a little too much timing. Me, I can live with marginally higher EGT.





Justin

 

[Hohn]

I forgot to add:



The harder the engine is working, the less timing advance it should have. The ECM is programmed to shift timing based on how much pedal you are giving it. If you're into the fuel, it will retard timing. If you're just cruising, it will advance timing.



Vaccum advance ignitions on gassers work the same way. When under load, the engine vacuum drops, so there's a lot less timing advance.



When you hook up your EZ, your ECM surrenders it's control of timing to the EZ. The EZ advances timing. Under light loads, this is wonderful-- higher mpg, lower EGT, etc...



But when you REALLY load the engine, you need to have some timing retard to reduce the peak cylinder pressures-- ESPECIALLY when you account for the effect of higher boost when under load!



You can't really load the engine too hard with an empty truck, but even so you can notice this excessive timing under load when you "get into it" and feel the thumping of the engine.



You guys who tow REALLY heavy with an EZ and injectors are risking hurting some expensive parts IMHO. I wish you the best of luck.



Justin

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Justin



Blue Chip told me the same thing you just did. They said that's why they send THEIR extra fuel pulse 27000ths of a second AFTER the ECM sends it to the VP-44. In attempt to RETARD timing.



Larry Crawford used to run one of these with a B-1 single charger. That truck ran and pulled great at Muncie, 2002.



Hmmmmm.....



Brian

 

[Hohn]

All of the wire-tap fueling boxes work the same way as far as injection goes-- meaning, they all add a secondary injection pulse, similar to firing the injector again.



That's how they can make so much torque. It's also how they make such high EGT.



What varies from box to box is how far apart in timing these injection pulses are, and whether or not they affect the timing of the FIRST injection pulse. The Edge boxes advance the primary and add a secondary pulse. The TST allows the ECM to control the primary, and then adds the secondary pulse. I believe the Blue Chip boxes act similar to the TSTs in that they do not control the primary pulse.



It's helpful to think of the boxes "controlling" timing versus "affecting" timing. In one case, the ECM has a say in timing ("affecting")-- in the other, the box runs the whole show ("controlling"). The Edge boxes have the box running the whole show. As much as the guys at Edge are great, I don't think they can optimize the timing for the Cummins engines, given how much one truck varies from another. They design their boxes to work with stock injectors (otherwise, DD would have no reason to tweak the boxes for use with injectors, right?). I also think that the stock timing on a CTD probably has a little room for advance (since they tune to lower emissions primarily) but NOT MUCH. Once this slight amount of wiggle room is gone, you have too much advance. You can easily eat up this wiggle room with just larger injectors. That's why I prefer that the ECM still do the timing for the engine-- the Cummins guys know what they're doing.



You can't have your cake and eat it too when it comes to wire tap boxes, torque and EGT. You want more torque, it brings EGT with it. If a box maker promises low egt with big torque gains from a wire tap box, be very suspicious.



Sorry to ramble on for so long. I would hate to see someone hurt their engine in an effort to lose 50 degrees of EGT.



Justin

 

[C.MILLER]

Justin,

After all is said and done, which box would you recommend? Right now I'm considering either a TST or a Blue Box ( after I get rid of my current Ottomind/ EZ combo. ) Or shoulda guy just go with bigger injector/turbo combo for more power, and stay away from boxes? TIA.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Hey Justin,



Am I wrong to fear the Banks Ottomind as a stand alone unit, then? I like my Edge, as a boost fooler only. But does the Ottomind vary timing as the manufacturer claims?



Thanks for the insight



Brian

 

[Bob Wagner]

Originally posted by ThrottleJockey

Thank you Bob!



Snowin up there yet? Snoqualamie (spelling??) is cool in the summer!

its just startin Brian, you been up here before?

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Bob



Oh yeah. Scenery took my breath away, first trip summer of 2002 delivering fifth wheel to Tacoma.



That mountain is a pleasure to drive in the ole Ram.



Brian

 

[Bob Wagner]

I used to work for a company in Shelbyville< IN too

 

[Hohn]

Originally posted by C. MILLER

Justin,

After all is said and done, which box would you recommend? Right now I'm considering either a TST or a Blue Box ( after I get rid of my current Ottomind/ EZ combo. ) Or shoulda guy just go with bigger injector/turbo combo for more power, and stay away from boxes? TIA.

I recommend the TST boxes. The only thing I don't like about the Edges is the timing, as I explained. If you really like that style of box, get the Diesel Dynamics version. Those boxes are based on the Edge design, but the timing is proper, and the box is just a little better all around (and usually a little cheaper)



I have heard nothing but good things about the Blue Chip, but they are consierably more expensive. You can get a TST new for $549, plus another $100 for the remote. The only thing in that price range that Blue chip offers is the APB, which is simple and works well, but is a real stripped-down bare bones model. The TST remote setup with gauges also offers built-in (programmable) defueling when a certain EGT (which you can set) is reached. That way you can just drive and not worry-- no need to always watch the pyro.

The top of the line TST w/ built in gauges is about the same as the Top of line Blue chip, so pick one. The TSTs have 10 levels of adjustability; the Blue chip adjusts by fueling percent (up to 63%) and can be tedious to adjust, though it is very precise. Generally, the BC boxes have lots of bells and whistles. I like the simplicity of the TSTs-- there's just less to go wrong.



Generally, I ALWAYS favor injectors over boxes for power, even on a non HO engine. By making most of your power with the injectors, it's easier on the engine, the pump especially, and on the whole driveline. Since you will need a boost fooler of some kind, you might as well get a box. Just make sure that your injectors are doing most of the work. So instead of a stg 2 injector and a fueling box, go one step bigger on the injector, and turn the box down.



I am now recommending that people either get a boost fooler only (cheap method) or go with an adjustable wire tap box. If you want to keep your warrantee, then you hafta go with the former and forgo the wire tap.



Boxes are neither good nor bad, per se. It's how they fit into the scheme of things. If you tow, it's probably better to just go with injectors and a simple fooler, though a TST box with the temp defuel would be a good towing setup with mild injectors.



Personally, my favorite combo is a TST PMAX competition, some MACH 3 EDM injectors, and a B1 turbo. This is a very streetable, clean running 450hp that's easy to live with when the box is off. It's also about the most a stock headgasket can take.



Obviously i have DD2s and an EZ. I did not make good decisions, so here I am having to do another stage to get it right. I should have gone bigger with injectors and gone with an adjustable box. Live and learn.



IMHO, you never want an injector smaller than the DD2 equivalent (about 75hp, or 90hp on a HO truck). Otherwise, you will have to buy injectors again. I would also recommend EDMs if you can afford it at all-- they really are better and not much more expensive.



I am no pro, just someone who reads a lot and tries to think things through. My advice is just that-- my opinion, not expertise. i hope you can see WHY i think what i do, since I like to have good reasons for my opinions.



Justin

 

[Hohn]

Originally posted by ThrottleJockey

Hey Justin,



Am I wrong to fear the Banks Ottomind as a stand alone unit, then? I like my Edge, as a boost fooler only. But does the Ottomind vary timing as the manufacturer claims?



Thanks for the insight



Brian

The Ottomind should be just fine as a standalone unit. BANK$ has a lot of these on the road, and while they may NOT be the cheapest around, you can bet that's it not going to take you into danger if it's working properly.



It's just when you combine it with something else that you open Pandora's box, and all bets are off.



The Banks stuff works best (and sometimes ONLY) as part of a BANKS system. I wouldn't mix and match their stuff.



The Timing that the Ottomind adjusts should be perfectly safe, similar to what the stock ECM does when it adjusts timing.



Justin

 

[jrandol]

Originally posted by C. MILLER

Justin,

After all is said and done, which box would you recommend? Right now I'm considering either a TST or a Blue Box ( after I get rid of my current Ottomind/ EZ combo. ) Or shoulda guy just go with bigger injector/turbo combo for more power, and stay away from boxes? TIA.

The myth has been laid to rest that the injectors alone dont put extra load on the VP44. Here's Chip, owner of Blue Chip Diesel's Q & A section covering this topic. This dude is super smart and a heckuva a nice guy to talk too so I take his word on the subject. Check out the last paragraph for supporting info. More fuel than stock regardless of where it comes from will always take away duty cycle. C. Miller, if you have an opportunity to call Chip I would recommend it. Guys like Chip or Mark Chappel (TST), or many other of the noted manufacturers of aftermarket equipment really helped me make the right decision for me, the TDR is a great source of info and the people on here are top notch but I feel no one knows their product better than the manufacturer. Chip and Mark are awesome guys and their hands on experience of how things work outweigh booksmarts. Not trying to be a cheerleader for either but I do run the FMS and am very pleased with it. Hope this link helps you out some. Oh, and welcome to the dark side!! Once you start you never go back!! Oo.



http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/Bosch-VP44.htm

 

[rodmeyer]

good topic, got me thinking now to. I havent heard anyone say anything about the van aaken box, how would it compare to the ez and other boxes as far as timing?I've heard its less timing then the ez,is it about the same as the ttpm?

 

[C.MILLER]

Justin, Brian - Thanks for all the great info!! Cummins2fast, aren't you glad you didn't listen to my first post?! I had no idea I could be risking that much with my setup. I don't know all the technical stuff about deisels, I just try to read, learn, and use common since on stuff. If I don't know then ask someone. Thats what makes the TDR so great... . Lots of info. Thanks again guys!!

 

[tmarti96]

Edge EZ and RV 275

wouldn't you know it. Just put new Edge EZ on, after installing RV 275's and thought I was doing the right thing. I tow RVs for a living and tow about 10,000 miles a month. Wonder what I am doing to the insides of my CTD. EGT never gets over 900, maybe 1000 on l ong pull. Check my signature and tell me what to do!!! thanks. (leave as is or remove everything)