FASS filtration deception.

[JCyrbok]

why not try the thicker washer with the BF1212 and see if the same thing happens, if it doesnt then I would think that is the cause.



J-

 

[PRohr]

Well I wanted to but the BF1212 is all dented up from getting it off with the filter pliers ..... so it's not going back on and I have the Donaldson coming tomorrow. I'll see what the Donaldson gasket looks like.

 

[AH64ID]

What I don't understand is that neither of those filters have anti-drain back valves in them, so the gasket seal shouldn't matter.

I am curious what the Donaldson does.

 

[PRohr]

Right... . I have no idea what's going on either. I'll try the Donaldson and report back.

 

[FASSAshley]

We definitely understand your area of concern and we have been working on improving the filter situation for about 3 months now. Here is some of the information and knowledge we have about the filters on the Titanium & HD Series.



As we have been discovering in discussions with different filter manufactures there are many variable's when performing filtration test causing different results even with the same media, as seen in the following paragraph. We have also discovered that the exact same media will have a water separation reading in one filter as to where another filter having the exact same media will not have a reading for water separation. There is an example of this also, so there is some reading in-between the lines required.



The Titanium Series water separator WS-2001 (Fleetguards # FS19768) and the HD Series' water separator WS-1001 (Fleetguards # FS1023) is a 140 micron stainless/steel serviceable wire mesh. These two elements are made of the exact same material; the only difference is that one has more material than the other. The FS19768 has a water separation efficiency rating of 50% per pass which was tested on 10-26-09, as to where the FS1023 has a 0% efficiency rating tested on 8-10-07. This type of media has water separating capability as they were also used for Caterpillar's A, B and C model mechanical engines in heavy duty equipment.



Remember they have a 50% rating per pass; this is one reason for the MASS Volume Return which the FASS incorporates. The majority of the fuel that passes through the FASS is polished and returned to the fuel tank to be polished again, now for the 2nd stage of water filtration.



Before the fuel exits back to the fuel tank or passes through to the engine the fuel must pass through the 3 or 10 micron Stratapore element found in our FF-1010 or FF-2003. This element has the same exact water separating capabilities as the very popular Fleetguard FS1000 at a 95% water separation capability. The only difference between the element found in the FF-2003, Titanium Series fuel filter, and the FS1000 is the micron rating. The FS1000 has a drain on the bottom as to where ours doesn't, we believe the bulk of the water will be captured in the water separator and remaining water will be captured in the fuel filter.



As stated in the opening paragraphs we have been in discussions with Racor, Baldwin, Donaldson just to name a few over the last 3 months and have been discovering ways to improve filtration. The FASS systems for the pick up market leaving our facility now have water separating capabilities ranging from 90 - 95% efficiencies. Here are a few examples of the filters we are using with their water separating efficiencies:



Water Separators:



Titanium Series:



1. FS19594 90%

2. P550550 90%





HD Series:



1. P551001 96%

2. FS1001 95%



We are researching fuel filters to improve water separating capabilities with our 3 micron filter for the HD Series. We had the understanding Fleetguard was using the 3 micron version of the Stratapore element for the Titanium Series fuel filter (#FF-2003), which they are not.



Many customers run the FASS Systems for different reasons, including improving injector issues. These customers have experienced improved injector life both in the pickup & class 8 markets. However there is always room to improve and that is what FASS is known for and committed to doing. We have demonstrated this in the past and will continue to do so; remember some of the noise issues? We now received a few calls to where the customer thought their FASS wasn't running only to discover it was performing they just had to put their ear next to the bed to hear it running. Now we are releasing the FASS Fuel Systems with superior filtration. We are always researching and discovering ways to improve and build customer loyalty! We accomplish this usually by being proactive but sometimes Murphy's Law hits us and we have to be re-active and we apologize for this. We appreciate your past and continuing support!



Ashley Barnhill

 

[AH64ID]

Thank you for the responce. . A few observations/questions. .

The Titanium Series water separator WS-2001 (Fleetguards # FS19768) and the HD Series' water separator WS-1001 (Fleetguards # FS1023) is a 140 micron stainless/steel serviceable wire mesh. These two elements are made of the exact same material; the only difference is that one has more material than the other. The FS19768 has a water separation efficiency rating of 50% per pass which was tested on 10-26-09, as to where the FS1023 has a 0% efficiency rating tested on 8-10-07. This type of media has water separating capability as they were also used for Caterpillar's A, B and C model mechanical engines in heavy duty equipment.

Fleetguard rates the FS19768 at 140um at 100%, and the FS1023 at 100um at 100%. Per Fleetguard the media is different, the FS19768 uses water striping media, the FS1023 does not. The FS1023 is only a wire mesh screen. The FS19768 is a water stripper; the FS1023 is not, it was never designed to remove water just to keep chunks out of the pumps. The drain is only there to remove sediment, if you get water separated from gravity then great, but thats not the intent.

Remember they have a 50% rating per pass; this is one reason for the MASS Volume Return which the FASS incorporates. The majority of the fuel that passes through the FASS is polished and returned to the fuel tank to be polished again, now for the 2nd stage of water filtration.

Only the FS19768 has a 50% removal rating per pass, 0 x anything is still 0 for the FS1023.

Before the fuel exits back to the fuel tank or passes through to the engine the fuel must pass through the 3 or 10 micron Stratapore element found in our FF-1010 or FF-2003. This element has the same exact water separating capabilities as the very popular Fleetguard FS1000 at a 95% water separation capability. The only difference between the element found in the FF-2003, Titanium Series fuel filter, and the FS1000 is the micron rating. The FS1000 has a drain on the bottom as to where ours doesn't, we believe the bulk of the water will be captured in the water separator and remaining water will be captured in the fuel filter.

I am curious where you get the info stating that the FF5712 or HF6604 are water stripping filters? Per Fleetguard they are not, their media is for particulate removal, not water.

Water Separators:

Titanium Series:

1. FS19594 90%
2. P550550 90%

I don't have data on the Donaldson, but the FS19594 is only rated at 20 GPH.

I suggest you look into the Luberfiner LFF9594, the emulsified water sep is a little lower, but its rated for 90GPH. The FS19594 will fall well below the 90% rating when 20 GPH is exceeded.



One last question. What was the reasoning for using the hydraulic filters? They are rated on a multi-pass bases, and fuel filters are rated single pass. Most, but not all, filters that are rated multi-pass are not as efficient single pass, some decrease 2-4um. Since the HF6604 is 3um absolute multi-pass, and is not tested single pass, there is no way to know its efficiency on one pass (which is very possible for fuel/contaminates to only go thru the filter once before the injectors. )

Again, thank you for your time.

 

[PRohr]

Thanks Ashley for clearing this up. I also appreciate the help I was given from Chris when I called the other day.

 

[Yo Hoot]

Ashley,

I noticed you did not answer AH64ID's rebuttal to your response on the other forum or this one. Any reason why?

Mike

 

[seafish]

And I suggest that Fass and/or Air Dog hire AH64ID as a consultant!!!:-laf:-laf

 

[JCyrbok]

And I suggest that Fass and/or Air Dog hire AH64ID as a consultant!!!:-laf:-laf

I second and third the motion, motion carries, When can you start AH64ID?



LOL

J-

 

[PRohr]

Well the Donaldson P551001 is installed and pressures are normal. No drop/bleed off. The inner sealing ring on the Donaldson is the same thickness as the WS1001 from FASS FYI. I think I am going to cut open the Baldwin and WS1001 and have a peek inside. I'll take some pics.

 

[Yo Hoot]

I just received my BF1212. For now I'm gonna put that one on my FASS 150. Mine runs at about 16-17 psi with the POS FS1023 can. I'll report back what pressure I get with the BF1212.

 

[JCyrbok]

I just received my BF1212. For now I'm gonna put that one on my FASS 150. Mine runs at about 16-17 psi with the POS FS1023 can. I'll report back what pressure I get with the BF1212.

for what its worth my pressure stayed the same when I switched to the BF1212 earlier in the week.



J-

 

[Yo Hoot]

Thanks J.

Mike

 

[AirDog]

I see that it was never stated. But the AirDog has used the LuberFiner (LFF9454) water seperator filter now for about 8 months. So all this info that has been said excludes AirDog. Our filter is NOT 50% free and 0% emulsified like the competitor. It is 95% free and 75% emulsified. Hope this clears some things up.

 

[Yo Hoot]

I see that it was never stated. But the AirDog has used the LuberFiner (LFF9454) water seperator filter now for about 8 months. So all this info that has been said excludes AirDog. Our filter is NOT 50% free and 0% emulsified like the competitor. It is 95% free and 75% emulsified. Hope this clears some things up.

It would make sense to show on your website the filter options/capabilities without having to search around for the specs. I think people who are buying they units EXPECT better filtration for over $500 less install. It would make sense to advertise the real spec. Get into a performance war!

 

[DMillard]

Thanks for all the research and information. Had no idea my 150 wasn't filtering the water out.

 

[Yo Hoot]

Thanks for all the research and information. Had no idea my 150 wasn't filtering the water out.

Exactly the point of this thread. I think they knew. That's why there was no mention of filtration capability in the propaganda.

 

[DMillard]

I just figured that because I live in the desert there was no water problem. Now I guess I'll wait to see which filter to get. The Baldwin BF1212 or the Donaldson P551001. My pump runs at 16 PSI and sometimes but rarely 15 PSI so the leak down problem might not be a problem with the BF1212 but someone mentioned FASS suggested the P551001 so which is better.

I believe TDR saved me some money because I wouldn't have known to put a fuel pressure gauge on the truck to find out my lift pp was going south. I baught the FASS because when I called Dodge they wanted way too much money for their pp. I haven't had any problems with the FASS. They did send me some stuff to upgrade the moter but I haven't installed it because the pp works fine. The parts are in the truck just in case.

I just signed back with TDR because I baught a travel trailer/toy hauler and need to make sure the truck is ready for long hauls. Proper prior planning prevents **** poor performance. ( the 7 P's) My truck has 183,000 on it, ( had 156,000 when puchaced ), and it's the best truck I've ever owned. As I learn more I'll be able to offer some help to others but I'm still on the upswing of the learning curve. I have had my truck for 6 yrs. now so I do have allot more experiance with driving it. I mostly towed my race car in a 28ft trailer with a camper mostly in high temperatures and this truck does the job very well. Thanks to all those that take the time to help us new guys.

 

[DZinger]

AH64ID - fellow WO I assume? I was wondering if you have a simple info sheet for those of us wanting to build a cheaper system that works just as well. I am considering the Walbro 392 pump as it is diesel fuel proof. My father in law built his set up using it along with a filter head from Glacier Diesel and his works great on his '03. I a mnot sure it will flow enough fuel to meet my needs though. I have an '07 with the Banks OttoMind 6 and I am planning on 90hp DDP'd this winter...