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Fass Help

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Any information about RPM OutLet site?

ARP head studs

Anyone have the cross reference sheet that came with the FAss, I seeemed to have lost mine and am trying to find a local replacement filter ASAP. I think my hard start problem may simply be a plugged filter.

Thanks in advance
 
For fuel filter they list lot of choices, I'll llist Fleetguard ( I think most common brand )

HF6338 - 10 MICRON microglass

HF6601 - 10 MICRON cellulose synthetic

HF6610 - 16 MICRON cellulose

HF6613 - 12 MICRON microglass

HF6607 - 6 MICRON microglass

HF6604- 3 MICRON microglass



For water separator FS1032 , Baldwin BF7760 OR Diesel Performance product WS-1001

me:cool:
 
Hydraulic filters

Anyone know the difference between a Hydraulic filter and a fuel filter? FASS uses a Hydraulic filter for the fine filtration and I just want to understand the differences. If there is a good reason why that is not good practice I would like to make a change to my system.

Thanks
 
A hydraulic filter is more expensive because of the fact that it must be able to handle very high pressures. The filters listed are off the shelf hydraulic filters made by Fleetguard that were not designed to remove air vapor. The attempt to separate air/vapor from fuel has been made by many individuals and companys around the world for over 100 years. The fass is admittedly design by altering the blue priints to the original air/fuel separation system invented and patented by the maker of the fass systems father. It is called the Fuel Preporator, original 1994 patent number 5,355,860. There is currently a Federal Patent Infringement suit on going against the maker of the fass. If you would obtain a copy of the 1998 Fuel Preporator patent number 5,746,184 you will see that the fass leaves out one of the more important features for air/fuel separation. This is also why the fass has difficulty in priming and can pass volumes of air to the engine. The function of the air separation feature utilized by the fass is described in detail in the disclosure section of the 1998 Fuel Preporator patent. A totally engineered product such as the Fuel Preporator AirDogTM, smaller and much more compact that is designed specifically for the diesel pickup market (filters included) is expensive and time consuming to develop. The AirDog tm is not priced as a base unit as the fass is. The AirDog tm comes complete including a relay controlled wiring harness and a low pressure indicator warning light system. The fass, which was admittedly designed by altering the Fuel Preporator blue prints is much larger and heavier as the early Fuel Preporator was originally designed for class eight trucks.



For more info see www.ekstamworldwide.com



Thanks,



Charlie
 
Hard to prime???

Perperator

I just changed my filters last night and Marveled at how easy the system was to prime with the Fass.



I did not understand what you were saying about the difference in filters. Would you mind trying that again, it would be appreciated.

Thanks



In your opinioon is the FASS a better setup than the OEM liftpump and filter??



I already own the Fass and am happy with it. I like the looks of your system as well. I like both way better than the mechanical deal that just came out.
 
Originally posted by Preporator

you will see that the fass leaves out one of the more important features for air/fuel separation. This is also why the fass has difficulty in priming and can pass volumes of air to the engine.



Charles,



Could you elaborate on this. I keep hearing that the FASS is lacking something but no one ever elaborates and in the mean time most of us FASS owners are happy and see improved performace and ease of use when changing filters and stuff. Get it out on the table man. Too much of this vaguness makes me questions what the heck is really going on here.



Also, keep in mind that your customers care less about the lawsuit and more about the quality, performance and reliability of the product. So explain away!



Thanks



Phil
 
Originally posted by Preporator

A hydraulic filter is more expensive because of the fact that it must be able to handle very high pressures. The filters listed are off the shelf hydraulic filters made by Fleetguard that were not designed to remove air vapor.



Charles,



Also, that did not really answer the porters question. What is the difference between the two? Is there anything wrong with using the hydraulic filter other than the lack of air vapor removal?



I have a lot of respect for your experience and what obviously seems to be a great product, but you need to be more straightforwrd with the answers. It would make me feel better about the product.



Thanks



Phil
 
I'm curious as to HOW the systems remove the air from the fuel. In my past live as a process worker, we would vacuum-degas the methylmethacrylate solution to remove any gasses. How do these systems remove the air and gasses?
 
Charlie,



Are you going to respond to the posts? I hate it when vendors make claims like Charlie has above and then does not back it up with factual data. This whole FASS / AirDog situation is messy and makes me not want to own either one of these products. And no, I am not going to go to all the trouble to look up the patent to try and figure the differences myself. Has there been a better thread about this that answers my questions about why the AirDog is better?



If the both products are as good as stated then both FASS and AirDog should step up with a better warranty as well.



uugghh... I have said enough



Phil
 
Charles will not reply to your satisfaction. The FASS is a better unit. That is my opinion. Been running one not for 6 months and would not trade it for 10 of Charles units :D
 
Hi Phil,



This post, which was originally written for Phil, has been very time consuming. However, before I post it, I first want to respond to the statement made by Murle.



I will respond to all posts, given the time and when I am not out of town! The fass is what it is, a product admittedly designed by altering the blue prints to the older Fuel Preporator. The maker of the fass has already admitted in state court to having misrepresentated things. The Fuel Preporator is what it is, the original, patented product. Additionally, the Fuel Preporator AirDog, smaller and more compact, has many features including: positive air/fuel separation, low pressure warning light, a fuel return system that won't give you a fuel shower when fueling with the engine running, CARB approved for California residents, a well engineered and secure mounting system, fuel filters and water separators speciffically designed for the application and a relay controlled wiring harness to name a few. Sorry, we don't have a brace and radiator clamp to hold our pump up. Actually, our design is such that we don't need it. Please read the rest of the post to Phill and you will have more questions answered!!!



The micron rating of a filter simply states the level of filtration of a particular filter. The use of a more expensive, 'off the shelf' hydraulic filter simply because it fits, at the expense of the consumer, rather than spending the money to develop a less expensive fuel filter that accomplishes the same thing, in my opinion, merely suggests the vendors level of concern for the quality of the finished product and the consumer. It may cost more to do it right in the first place, however the effort will be rewarded in the long term. The fuel filters used on the AirDog, as on all Fuel Preporators, are designed appropriately for the application. We are working to make two micron StrataPore TM fuel filters available for the AirDog.



The Fuel Preporator was designed with full concern of the diesel engine and the operator in mind. The Fuel Preporator was designed to be a complete product. To accomplish this, it has many features. For instance, as shown in the 1998 patent there are two prominent air/vapor separation features. The first capitalizes on the fact that a filter element when submerged in a body of fluid has a natural resistance to the passage of air vapor. The entrained air/vapor is separated from the fluid as the fluid passes through the filter media. In the Fuel Preporator, the separated air/vapor is then removed by special internal features of the system and vented through the return line back to the fuel tank, its source. This feature, which gives positive air separation under all prescribed operating conditions of the appropriately applied Fuel Preporator, is not in the fass. The fass replicates identically the secondary air/vapor feature of the 1998 Fuel Preporator patent figures and drawings. This feature, which is described in detail in the disclosure and claim sections of the Preporator's 1998 patent was designed for several functions. Although one function is act as a gas exit port, under certain conditions it has limitations. A device using only this method of air separation can be made to appear to separate air/vapor from fuel on a demo stand, however, it has its limitations and under certain operating conditions can pass large volumes of vapor to the engine.



As the Inventor of the Fuel Preporator, I would not in good conscience attempt to market a device with only partial features, patented and/or unpatented features, of the Fuel Preporator. A device such as this, with such a relatively high flow and high return volumes of fuel into a small tank, such as those in use on the pickup truck, can create excessively aerated conditions that could have potentially devastating effects to the fuel system components of a diesel engine. The features of the Fuel Preporator all have their purpose. That purpose is to fulfill the complete fuel filtration and deliver needs of the diesel engine that allow the engine peak or optimum designed performance under all reasonable operating conditions. This requires the fuel to be properly filtered for the removal of contaminates, water, particulates and especially entrained air/vapor. Until Fuel Preporator, lost power from plugged fuel filters and air/vapor entrained in fuel was a problem no one had solved! Cummins addressed air/vapor in fuel and partially filled primary fuel filters in their July 1st, 1965 Service Topic, 5-135. Caterpillar quantified it in their March 1990 Special Instruction as "normally, No. 2 diesel fuel contains about 10% air in solution, although the air is not visible... " All students of hydraulics know that if the net positive suction head at the inlet of a pump is less than that required to fill the pump, cavitation will result and vapor will be produced. When calculating the pressure head available to the fuel inlet of the average vacuum feed lift pump on the average diesel engine, it is obvious as to how cavitation develops. It should now become clear as to why diesel engines loose torque at the higher operating rpms as the fuel filter plugs from contaminates. Air and fuel vapor, as all gasses, is compressible. When present in the fuel injection system of the diesel engine, it creates a pressure-time lag in the injection that results in retarded injection timing as well as possible damage to the system components.



Diesel fuel is the lubricant to most parts of the fuel injection system. When the fuel film breaks down or is displaced by air/vapor, metal on metal conditions result. Just as when the oil film in other parts of the engine break down, the result is excessive abrasion and permanent component damage.



Air/vapor present in diesel fuel, entrained through mechanical agitation or developed through pump cavitation, creates problems. The Fuel Preporator removes the entrained air/vapor from the fuel and maintains the necessary positive pressure head to your engines system for optimum engine performance. For the 5. 9 Cummins it also has the capability to successfully replace the original lift pump. For convience we include a low fuel pressure warning light to signal necessary maintainence.



Thanks for your time Phil, I hope this will help to answer more of your questions.



Charlie
 
Charlie,



Thanks for the detailed explanation. So in summary it appears that what you are saying is that the FASS lacks the following:



1. The FASS only has a single method for removing air/vapor from fuel which is not perfect and can actually add entrained air to the fuel under certain circumstances. The AirDog on the other hand has this same system plus a special secondary system to remove separated air/vapor.



2. The FASS does not have true diesel fuel filters, they are replaced with more expensive hydraulic filters.



3. The FASS lacks a low pressure warning light



4. The AirDog was specifically designed for our trucks whereas the FASS is a ripoff of the original preporator design but without the items listed above. The FASS is also larger.



5. The FASS lacks a good mounting system



I now have a somewhat better understanding of the differences. If someone asked which one was better I would probably tell them the AirDog because what you have outlined here. But... there is a cost associated with better. In this case it is around $150 I believe.



If the additional money is not a problem then buy the AirDog. If you are on a budget and can only afford the FASS and are willing to put up with the shortcomings listed above then get the FASS.



I would still like to see the following:



1. A before and after Dyno result with the airdog on the 5. 9 Cummins

2. A much stronger warranty



I would even say that if you backup the product with a better warranty that might make peoples buying decision easier. In fact, I know if would!!



Thanks again Charlie!!



Phil
 
Hi Phil,

Just a couple of corrections!



Phil said:

"1. The FASS only has a single method for removing air/vapor from fuel which is not perfect and can actually add entrained air to the fuel under certain circumstances. The AirDog on the other hand has this same system plus a special secondary system to remove separated air/vapor. "



I said:

"In the Fuel Preporator, the separated air/vapor is then removed by special internal features of the system and vented through the return line back to the fuel tank, its source. This feature, which gives positive air separation under all prescribed operating conditions of the appropriately applied Fuel Preporator, is not in the fass. The fass replicates identically the secondary air/vapor feature of the 1998 Fuel Preporator patent figures and drawings. "



Phil said:

"5. The FASS lacks a good mounting system"



I said:

"the Fuel Preporator AirDog has many features including:..... a well engineered and secure mounting system,"



Your comments are well taken, thank you!



About our warranty, we give a two year unlimited mileage warranty. I understand your concern about the potential failure of a lift pump and the resulting frustration including being stuck on the road?!?!? Based on our experience in manufacturing products for class 8 trucks and the fact that the AirDog has the same quality components. The electric motor on the AirDog pump has the identical bearings, seals, commutator, and brushes as used on the larger FP-135A class 8 truck model. Because of this, we feel that the AirDog fuel pump will last as long and probably even longer than the pump used on the earlier Fuel Preporator of which some have seen 600,000 to 800,000 miles and more.



Thanks,



Charlie
 
I have also seen the same illustration unit that Charlie had on the "Two Guys Garage", only had the FASS installed on it. No matter what we did to make entrained air in the line, the air went back to the tank and what would have gone to the injection pump , had none in it. (That was visible by the naked eye)



Now I don't want to come on here and bad mouth Charlies Air Dog system, that is not the intent of any of my posts. But, the FASS system that is on my truck that has worked flawlessly, is much better than the stock system that I had before. I am sure that many of us here want the reliablilty and performance from these systems..... right? The Air Dog system will be an option for me, possibly on another truck, but I have to admit, it is more $$ than the FASS. It has yet to be proven on the dyno, which needs to be done to ensure integrity of the product and the inventor, but that has , to my knowledge, not been done yet. Why?



If I were making the statements of performance... ... ... ... . torque... ... ...



http://www.ekstamworldwide.com/lighttruck.htm



". For those serious performance seekers, an Air Dog installed on your fuel system will increase torque output and horsepower on your Powerstroke, Cummins Turbo diesel or a Duramax. "



Where are the numbers on the dyno? Now if I were in business and on a diesel site, trying to sell my product, that would have been the FIRST thing I would have done. I think youll find out most members here dont give a hoot about ISO 9001 Certification, which by the way is a joke, ie: Firestone... .



The guys want reliablity and PROVEN performance, ie : dyno results. Not just a bunch of blah, blah, blah. Back up what you claim with certified results and you will probably have more business coming from these people that watch these threads.



Charles, I think too the people here want to know the truth behind the test trucks from your fuel preporator that was to have taken place in Tennessee. I believe Wade Patton was involved somehow... ..... what happened to that test or weren't the results to your liking? Inquiring minds want to know.



Thanks for your time,

GIT-R-DONE
 
tractorface said:
Perperator

I just changed my filters last night and Marveled at how easy the system was to prime with the Fass.



I did not understand what you were saying about the difference in filters. Would you mind trying that again, it would be appreciated.

Thanks



In your opinioon is the FASS a better setup than the OEM liftpump and filter??



I already own the Fass and am happy with it. I like the looks of your system as well. I like both way better than the mechanical deal that just came out.



I em surprise with this a hard to prime statement too. Because priming is just so easy. I don't have idea how to check, if is less or no air in the fuel that way I can't argue about that, but my pressure is the same no matter what I do and for price of three lift pump you can't go wrong with that system. And I know my truck is less noisy. IMHO

me :cool:
 
Wade Patton was involved. But he will not respond to his request in letting us know the out come of his free Preporator. So there is only one conclusion. It did not perform to the advertised claims. That is my personal conclusion.
 
Hi Murle,

Sorry not to have answered as yet. I started last night but didn't get it finished or posted. I have not heard from Wade. I have not called him as I am not one to 'bug' another. However, I, as you and the others would be interested to find out where he went. It could be that he just did not want to go to the trouble to mount the larger FP-135A. We did not have an installation kit to mount the FP-135A on pickups or the smaller AirDog available with the complete install kit at that time.



Got to go!! More to come later.



Thanks,



Charlie
 
Not to BUG him????? I installed my FASS on 12/7/03. Shortly after that Preporator sent Wade a FREE unit to test. Let us say SEVEN months ago. I would say that it is not BUGGING to ask for RESULTS!!!!!! If Wade has not tested it I would say it is time for Preporator to ask for the FREE unit back.



I say it has been tested and the Preporator does not hold up to its claims.....
 
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