Fass Help

[CEkstam]

Hi Murle

In the posts that I have made concerning the Fuel Preporator and the fass, it has been in an attempt to alert the consuming public and particulary the fine

members of the TDR to a potential problem of using a device that is as admittedly an alteration of the Fuel Preporator design and on analysis obviously missing some important features. The Fuel Preporator has a reputation for improving diesel engine performance. It was admitted in state court by the maker of the fass that some of the claims he made about the fass were misleading and really results that were from the Fuel Preporator. It is not my intent in these posts to insult the intelligence of anyone. It has just been to alert the buying public to some facts that might benefit them in the future. Additionally, these posts are not meant to reach the levels of a court battle.



Murle when you say that "it has been tested and the Preporator does not hold up to its claims..... " Let's be sure what the basic claims that have made are!



1. It is no hidden fact that I have said the Fuel Preporator is an

air/fuel (diesel fuel) separation system.

The system has been tested by the University of West VA Emission

Lab and the University of Illinois Engineering Dept. and verified

these claims.

2. Diesel fuel entrains large volumes of air from mechanical agitation.

Is it a big business degassing petroleum based liquids for industry,

Cat and Cummins have both documentated entrained air in diesel

fuel and that it causes a problem.

3. Fuel pumps operating under a vacuum feed principle can cavitate

and produce fuel vapor.

4. Air and Fuel vapor is compressible. When present in the injection

system of the diesel engine it retards timing which leads to low power

increased fuel consumption and increased exhaust emissions (increased

from the factory or designed intent) and eventually permanent engine

defects.

4. The elimination of the entrained air and conditions that lead to cavitation

have the potential restore or maintain the injection timing and

performance of the diesel engine to the factory designed spec's.

5. The increased performance obtained by the installation of the Fuel

Preporator on the diesel engine, is actually a restoration to the potential

designed performance level, This is an increase from the lesser

'real world' performance level of the inuse diesel engine as degraded

from the development fuel vapor within the fuel system and/or the

presence of air/vapor through the use of the 'vacuum feed'

filtration/delivery system currently in use on most all diesel engines.

6. The fass system has been admitted in state court, by its maker, to have

been designed by altering the blue prints to the Fuel Preporator. The

blue prints that he had were those of the earlier Fuel Preporator design.

7. I have said that the fass lacks the primary air/gas exit port design of the

Fuel Preporator. The feature that enhances air/vapor separation from

the fuel to allow virtually vapor free fuel to be delivered by the system

to the engine under the prescribed operating conditions of the

appropriately installed Fuel Preporator.

8. I have said that the fass has 17 identical and interchangable parts of the

old style Fuel Preporator.

9. I have said that using a device with the primary gas/vapor exit port missing

could lead to the passage of air/vapor to the engine.

10. I have said in reference to #9 that this could lead to poor performance to

the 5. 9 Cummins and to permanent damage to fuel system

components of that engine.



This is not, I am sure, a complete list of all of the statements that I have made concerning these issues. However, I do think that it does cover most of the important ones. Should any of the readers of this post desire to discuss real issues of performance about the diesel engine, I am always happy to oblige. If the posts are only in the interest of engaging in a "cat fight" I think it is a waste of all of our time.



For Murle and those reading this post, maybe I should appologize for trying to alert you to the truth about these devices. I would hope that most of you would find the information and discoveries of value in all of our quests for peak performance from our uses of the diesel engine.



Thanks for your time,



Charlie

 

[Wiredawg]

FASS Results

Charles:



Has the court ruled anything about sales of the FASS or anything else pertaining to it?



I own two FASS setups: I bought one and won one at May Madness. It's a little discerning to read the info about FASS being stolen patent and inferior in design.



Well, all I can say is the FASS has had a dramatic improvement on my 02 3500. I'm seeing 16 psi at idle and about 15 psi at WOT. I'm seeing a little over 1 mpg improvement and have a good seat of the pants improvement in acceleration. The mounting seems solid enough. The FASS uses a relay operation too. I modified the FASS fuel return and "engineered" a fitting in the fuel filler tube allowing me to fuel while truck is running and for transfer of fuel from my aux tank.



Finally, all I can say is I'm extremely satified with the FASS. I intend to install the second one on my wife's 03 in the next couple of months.



Please keep us informed as the outcome of the lawsuit.



Wiredawg

 

[Murle]

When I stated "it has been tested and the Preporator does not hold up to its claims..... I was Talking about Wade..... He has had your pump for 7 months now and has not posted his results..... He made such a big fuss about how good your pump was and we are still waiting for the test results... . So I can only guess that it did not stand up to his wild dreams... .

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Charles, you would make a good politician.

 

[SpicyJam]

Well I have a FASS, and looked at the price of the AIRDOG, from the looks of things, I think we people of the general world are seeing apples to apples and for what looks the same we are looking for a good product at a real people price. The tech talk is confusing by all means. In all honesty I think the war of the Roses on here is a bad deal, all I wanted was a better fuel system in my truck that would keep up with the fuel demand I ask from it, and I got what I was looking for. The air part keeps me intrested because of my hard start issues I have been having. Other than that patents and a bunch of over claimed miracales of what we can expect is getting old.



Wade is a good example, should have giving me the AIRDOG and I would have tested both on the dyno and came back with some real results. Not boast and hammer about one product or the other then run. Bad dealings in my book. Bottom line is that FASS is a proven product by those who use it and price is less expensive. Think that if one would like to try to be a least compettitive, matching price is the name of the game. Then fight your court battles.

 

[Murle]

Preporator, In reguard to your PM... . If you think this is a grip session then you might want to reread some of the threads..... I don't need to contact you in private to ask why a member of TDR gives a free Preporator to another member of TDR and in 7 months nothing is reported about the unit. Good or Bad. Then goes around bad mouthing the FASS. I reported what good luck I have had with the FASS and you jump in trying to tell everyone here what is wrong with the FASS. I have had NO problems and I have not heard of anyone else that is running the FASS having problems. Everyone can make up their mind on which unit they want to buy. And everything needs to be posted here not in private PM's



I'm sure that some may think it looks bad for a TDR member here to promise to test something and does not do it within 7 months. And the manufacturer of that unit does not follow up on why it has not been tested. I'm one of those people.

 

[Rman]

Murle, just my observations here...



first you said this:

I say it has been tested and the Preporator does not hold up to its claims... ...

and then you say this:

I'm sure that some may think it looks bad for a TDR member here to promise to test something and does not do it within 7 months. And the manufacturer of that unit does not follow up on why it has not been tested. I'm one of those people

Frankly, if you have the stones to say that about the preporator I sure don't want to hear you spouting off about the ethics of being a TDR member. Or is being a hypocrite ok for you and you alone?



Again, just my observations.

 

[Murle]

I was stating a opinion... . My opinion is that it has been test and did not meet Wade's high opinion of the Preporator.



I don't know if it have been tested or not, for sure... . I can only Guess that after 7 months that is has been tested.



In the last several weeks several of us here have asked for Wade's results. We have also asked if it has not been tested... . WHY NOT? We get no answer on either questions.



I you Rman, thinks that is being "hypocrite", Then so be it.

 

[SpicyJam]

I am going to agree with Murle on this one. The way Wade spouted off and then there has been no way to get him to report any type of claims is not good behavior. Like I said this fight over the 2 units is bad taste, in more ways than one.

With all the bad mouthing Wade did about the FASS, he left a huge can of worms open, and a lot of members wanting results. We as TDR members get to choose what we buy and have our own thoughts on why we buy the items we do. I would hope that know one would put down anything I am trying to use, nor would I condemn anything anyone else was trying.

If you read the ads from both the AirDog and the FASS, there are some big claims that have no warrent. Other than a glorifed fuel pump that is all they are to me, until I can see documentation of their claims I will take it at face value. I have noticed the horse power claims have come off the ads.

Right now like I said I have a FASS, I like it, but am trying to deal with some issues with my truck, weather it is FASS related or other I will figure it out. I have been posting my hard start update each time I change a possible cause. Along with that notion when others do the same it is a big factor that makes this site work so well. Not to stoop low and recieve a free products bad mouth the compettition and other members, and never back anything up.



So MURLE, keep it up, keeping people in check and backing up claims is all we are asking.

 

[Murle]

Thanks for the kind words, SpicyJam. Very well put. All we want here is the truth. Wish I or someone could help you with your hard to start problems. My truck has never been hard to start at all.

 

[tractorface]

Hard start

Spicyjam



I agree with your post.



As for the hard start, I just lost the battle this morning. Truck came home on a rollback. It now has a "no run" problem.

Hot Rod VP is on the way Oo. $$$$

Bought the HR pump cause I want to make a good thing out of a bad deal. Bottom line is my hard start was a bad VP even though truck ran strong with no other signs of trouble. Did have lots of white smoke puffs at start up. Anyway good luck.



Murle

I agree with what your saying I just am not good at being confrontational like you seem to be :-{} . So from us quieter types, Thanks!



Mr. Airdog man may have a good product but it is difficult to see behind the chip on his shoulder. All good designs get ripped off, the product will either sell or tank on its own merits. I for one think Airdog and Fassman will compete end up making both products better kinda like the transmission wars are improving those products. Competition is a good thing, something that is often overlooked on these threads.

 

[LowFly]

FASS Filter Reply

Hello everybody,



I have been doing my best not to read these threads but people keep reporting to me what Charlie is saying. What he is relaying to everybody attacks my ethics, morals and the quality of the FASS System.



I am not going to defend every point Charlie makes against me for several reason:

1. because it would take to long.

2. it takes to much time to read his replies.

3. it just isn't necessary.



I am going to start with the quality of the FASS System. First of all, the FASS System has a 4 year warranty for the pick up models only!! Yes a 4 year warranty for pick up models!! I would like to make something clear up front: The FASS System is a very high quality fuel pump and filtration unit!! I also want to make this clear, as we try to build every FASS unit to perfection (with out any flaws) it ain't going to happen. If you build enough of anything you are going to eventually make a mistake. We have many tests that we perform on every unit before it leaves our facility to insure quality.



The method in which the pump is supported is very simply and reliable. To date we have not had one problem with the support method used.



The difference between a hydraulic filter and a fuel filter is the amount of pressure the filter will take. I hydraulic filter will take much more pressure and it has a thicker can. To date I have never heard of one of our filters being punctured. (Might be something to consider) We do not want our customers being trapped into buying our filters, what happens if you need one immediately? With the FASS you can get one over the counter. Our filters are inexpensive for the miles you receive.



Now about removing air from fuel using a hydraulic filter!! Near the beginning of what we now know as the Fuel Preporator, hydraulic filters were used for removing air. Hydraulic filters are still being used on Fuel Preporators today to remove air. Here is a little info that might be of interest: Charlie did invent his first patent, it worked okay. He took that patent idea to Central Illinois Manufacturing (CIM-TEK) and (I believe) they designed his second patent. Yes his name is on it but they designed it and made the Fuel Preporator work better (more consistent). CIM-TEK paid the University of Illinois to study how much air is in fuel and to study if the Fuel Preporator takes the air out. U of I did discover that the Fuel Preporator does remove air. The filter on the Fuel Preporator that was on the test unit was a “HYDRAULIC FILTER”.



I have been too many trade shows this year with a demonstration unit. During my presentation I restrict the fuel line creating an extreme amount of air/vapor, you then can see all of that air exiting the unit right back to the fuel tank. Many of you have seen this at the shows. There is no need for what Charlie calls a secondary air removal system!



To clarify what I said in court (this is not a quote): I have been responsible for many design changes to the Fuel Preporator from 1994 – 2002. I had a lot of my time and money in developing the Fuel Preporator in those years. I never said I altered blue print designs of the Fuel Preporator. I said I used o’ring cuts, ball cuts and information that can be found in public books that I had already looked up when I was making changes to the Fuel Preporator. I did design the FASS System!!



I am going to enlighten everybody about Charlie and his wife Dora’s intent. (Dora I believe is president of Fuel Preporator International). I grew Fuel Preporator under my business name from 1994 – 1998 and when a company in St. Louis took over they kept me for the distribution and technical support of the Fuel Preporator. For the better part of the first year after the new company took control Charlie and his wife made numerous trips to St. Louis trying to get them to cut me off from helping them with the Fuel Preporator. I kept doing business with the new company and they even hired me. I believe these two have an all out hatred for me and will try to end me at any cost.



I did not get on here to make any sales and if you think I did I do not want your business so do not call. I got on hear because my creditability was being attacked and that means more to me than business. So I tried to briefly defend myself. What I find very interesting and I apologize to him is that tractorface had a question about filters and he catches all of that crap from Charlie.



Brad



P. S. Sorry for being so long, I had a lot of energy to get rid of. HaHa

 

[SpicyJam]

Gee, thanks Brad, but answer one question for me. I e-mailed you and called your office today. Hope you are thinking about what I asked in my e-mail about the hard start problem I am having.



Thanks Murle for the response, but I have to go back to why this thread was started, a gentlemen asking for filter numbers. I still don't understand why Charlie got involved in this issue. Still though find it intresting. As for the hard start issue with my truck, well one item at a time. Like I said it was fine with the comp, DD2's, and FASS for 2 weeks, then has been a pain since, may end up having to buy a new starter the way it's going. I am just trying to elimate the FASS from the problem, then the VP valve then injector lines, I mean it could just a small pinhole that I just can't find yet. Thank all Jim.

 

[LowFly]

Hard Start

Hello Jim,



First of all I want you to know that I tried returning your call today.



Now to the problem. Pull the fuse out of the FASS System, the fuse is about 3" away from the pump on the FASS. Now go and start the truck but if the truck starts please shut it off immediately so your VP44 does't get damaged. I bet your truck started fine. If it started immediately that means your VP44 will not handle the start up pressure coming from the FASS System and the 26psi you spoke of in your email could be the cause. Most of the time the FASS will only go to 15 - 18psi. Place the fuse back in the harness. Make sure there are no kinks in the return line from the FASS System. The initial 26psi is what makes me think you could have that problem. Once you know that the fuel line flows smoothly back to the fuel tank see what the initial pressure is. The next step once (if necessary) the fuel line is routed properly is to see what the initial pressure is and you might want to put a different gauge in temporarily to make sure that psi reading from the first gauge is correct. Before we go any further I'd like to now what you come up with, please give me a call tomorrow as I will be traveling from about noon on. I will call you from my cell phone if you do not call before I leave.



Brad

 

[SpicyJam]

Brad, I was not trying to be a smarta$$ about you getting ahold of me. Although it does appear that way, sorry. I had your message on the phone this morning, I get off work at 3pm CST. I think we both are on the same page with the pressures, again never thought of taking out that fuse thanks. I will do so Thursday morning, again thanks, Jim

 

[EBoyts]

Modified fuel filler tube?

I modified the FASS fuel return and "engineered" a fitting in the fuel filler tube allowing me to fuel while truck is running and for transfer of fuel from my aux tank.

Wiredawg, what did you do to your filler tube to allow refueling with the engine running? I'm guessing others might be interested too.

Thanks in advance,

Eric

 

[PRout]

1: My gripe. . Its really a shame that a person with Brad's fine character has to continually be on the defense like he has. These "chip-on-the-shoulder" attacks are past the point of starting to stink and just too personal for anyone's good.



I would have no problem reading about the point-to-point differences between the products, but its hard to "wade" (pun intended) through the personal BS & lawsuit talk to pull out some pertinent details (which are basically statements like "Mine removes air better than the other. ") But HOW DOES IT DO THAT?? Is this feature worth the extra cost? And, how can we decide if we dont even know what that feature is??



2: Hard Starting Input. . This is not scientific, but I also had a hard to start condition when warm after installing the FASS. It acted like there was air getting in the lines when sitting. I went back and replaced all the connectors that had been effected by the install. That did not help. Then, re-installed the OEM filter/water seperator. It did help. Maybe 50% better. Since the OEM lift pump never showed more than 13psi, I ran the pressure down to 13psi. Bingo! 90% solved. Still sometimes didnt start like before. Noticed the large filter on the fass was weeping fuel. Pulled it off, cleaned the gasket, and put some grease on it, and re-installed it. It just barely weeps now, but this truck starts great again. On rare occasions where it doesnt fire the first try, I make sure the pump is in the run cycle w/ 13 psi showing and hit the key. Fires up quick every time.



So bottom line for this case seemed to be:



-Start pressure needed to be between 10-13. 5psi. Did not like 15psi.

-Seems to like having the OEM fuel reservoir full of fuel, ready to feed the VP.

-fuel filter on fass was weeping, possibly letting air in the system.



Also, I noticed that after any change was made, it took about 5 days of running to get all of the air out of the system.



If it does get hard to start, dont wait for the pump to stop before hitting the key. Hit it while the pump is running, and has run for a couple seconds.



Hey, these are just my observations. Your results will vary. This FASS has been flawless once I turned town the psi, and used drilled banjos to keep the drop down under WOT. After 8 months max pressure is 13. 5, min is 12. Even when the tank is almost empty and your running on fumes, it keeps pressure. Its been a great unit.



And as like Brad and Murle would say, if you dont like what I say. Get ****.



over...

 

[LowFly]

Fass

Hello Shortshift,



Thank you for the information! From the trouble shooting I have been performing I have been finding that it is pressure related. I am still thinking about what you said conserning the factory filter being in place. With the lower pressure I do not think it would be necessary for the factory filter to be in place. For the weepage off of the filter give me a call and I'll send you a new one. Our filter manufacturer made the rim of the filter a little larger on a batch they ran which cause the rim to hit the base of the FASS before completely sealing.



Brad

 

[tractorface]

Thanks Brad

I wanted to publicly thank you for your honesty and excellent service. I had a problem with my FASS and suspected it was trouble on my end. Brad took a look and decided the problem would be covered under warranty. A less honest person could have easily repaired the unit and billed me without another word said. It's not wether or not you have a problem with a product but how you handle the problem. This problem was handled very well and fast.

Thanks

Rick

BTW, The unit was delivered with new filters which I appreciate.

 

[Murle]

Quote... . but its hard to "wade" (pun intended) through the personal BS & lawsuit talk to pull out some pertinent details



LMAO



We are still waiting and waiting WADE!!!!