FASS or Air Dog ??

[LightmanE300]

Lightman E300, Who In Your Opinion Makes A Reliable Pusher Pump? My Carter Lasted 30k. Have Since Installed Air Dog. Easy Filter Changes, Larger Fuel Lines, Great Pressure And Volume And Easy Install. John.

I'm not in a position to recommend any particular pusher pumps, I haven't tested them. However, I just don't think 'air separation' is anything but a marketing ploy. Of course people have experienced smoother idle and running with the addition of one of those systems - they provide more steady and higher fuel pressure to the engine. My point is that a pusher pump would do the same thing, regardless of "air separation".



Roger it appears your argument is that the pusher pump in your airdog setup is of such high quality, that buying a similar pusher pump would cost more than the airdog setup. I'm not sure about your claims, although I do know that lots of ppl are running the DD pusher pump setup, which is only a few hundred bucks. Are they lasting as long as other brands? I'm not sure, however I don't see many complaints. .

 

[OT-OF-HERE!!]

Fass

I've read a lot from both camps on the AirDog vs. FASS system. In my *opinion* both are of excellent quality. However, I don't really think either one is very well thought out (again, my opinion). What are you getting for the price? You're getting an aluminum block machined to accept a couple spin-on filters with a lift pump attached to it. What you don't get is:



-An option for a 12v heater

-Any kind of adjustable pressure regulator



What's the flow rate vs. pressure for the pump? Can these systems be submerged in water (if you mount it beneath the frame and try to ford water, will you be in major trouble?). Why do both these systems bypass the stock filter canister, when that canister comes with a nice 300W heater and a 10-micron filter? In my *opinion* it would be more appropriate to retain the stock filter canister (you did pay for it, after all) and add the improved filtration from these units.



Nevertheless, for those who want a simple, complete, bolt-on installation to replace the stock lift pump you really can't beat either FASS or AirDog. I'm not sure who's been running either one for a long time, so longevity is not immediately apparent, but it seems they'll probably last longer than the stock LP.



In my *opinion* you can do better (better is very subjective, I know) than FASS or AirDog by designing and building your own system. But then, that's true with almost everything you can buy: either pay someone to build it for you and be happy with what you get or build your own and get something that exactly fits your needs. Same reason so many people build their own computers.



If I were *forced* to buy either an AirDog or a FASS, I'd probably buy the AirDog. Probably. That's just my *opinion*. Best of luck with whatever you choose!



-Ryan

Ryan,



My FASS came with a heater and for pressure regulation you simply change the spring in the regulator. You can lower it from stock FASS to 3 or 4 lbs less with changing the spring. I think both of the items you sited are covered by FASS. Don't know on the Air Dog.

 

[rbattelle]

The FASS now has a 12v heater option? I stand corrected. And I also was not aware that pressure could be changed on it. I apologize for the misinformation.



-Ryan

 

[Briman]

I have a brand new FASS for sale in the clasifieds cheap. My loss is your gain. Here's the link: https://www.turbodieselregister.com...splay_db_button=on&db_id=9037&query=retrieval

Thanks for looking.

 

[RAndrae]

Ive had all three

I have had a FASS, PREPORATOR, and a AIRDOG. I have held, looked at and ran all three. ALL three are light years better than any stock type or after market "holley/carter type fuel pump. Its not rocket science,if the stock type pumps are failing left and right (mine at 19,000mi) geee should we run another. Or better yet put another pusher pump to suplement junk? All 3 of these units are well built (and so far outlasted) the stock pump.



IMO all three pump PLENTY of fuel with NO varience in pressure. IMO the PREPORATOR and AIRDOG seem to be better built and are finished nicer than the FASS. IMO the PREPORATOR and FASS are a bitt over kill for most trucks and noisier that the AIRDOG. IMO if funds are very tight get the FASS, a little cheaper but excellent product. If there is a couple extra buck around get the AIRDOG nice compact quiet unit that moves PLENTY of fuel with PLENTY of pressure at ALL times. Also remember that the AIRDOG and PREPORATOR come with a complete wiring harness / relay system. I know that with anything mechanical or electric failure is possible, I ran my system to the stock fuel filter and removed my stock lift pump. I put 3/8 pushon fittings on the stock pump and IF I do have a failure I can put it in line near my AIRDOG and plug the harness right in and go. I do have to admit that the stock pump is still in the garage somewhere.

 

[Roger rodbolt]

I'm not in a position to recommend any particular pusher pumps, I haven't tested them. However, I just don't think 'air separation' is anything but a marketing ploy. Of course people have experienced smoother idle and running with the addition of one of those systems - they provide more steady and higher fuel pressure to the engine. My point is that a pusher pump would do the same thing, regardless of "air separation". . .

Experience is a great teacher and I've spent most of my life in the school of "hard knocks". I encourage you to test pusher pumps and report back.

Roger it appears your argument is that the pusher pump in your airdog setup is of such high quality, that buying a similar pusher pump would cost more than the airdog setup. I'm not sure about your claims, although I do know that lots of ppl are running the DD pusher pump setup, which is only a few hundred bucks. Are they lasting as long as other brands? I'm not sure, however I don't see many complaints. .

Lightman, I like the guys at DD and have personally used their 2nd Gen. injector & products but the last I heard is their pusher setup uses a Carter pump... ... ... ... ... ..... A Dodge warranty tech/rep at the Columbus assembly plant told me that they (Cummins factory) pay ~$16. 00 for the Carter pump. This was in year 2000 so factor in inflation... . Please let me know where to find any diesel rated lift pumps that are compatible, perform well & last in our trucks. The VP44 folks have been trying for four or five years to find a low price reliable pump. If we could have found a better value we wouldn't have invested a couple hundred thousand dollars bringing the AirDog to the market.



I reread my post and want to stress that I'm don't pretend to, or have, all the answers. Your "total ripoff" statement in an earlier post did cause my new gray hairs to shine . I have experimented with most of the homegrown systems before I learned of Preporator or Fass and since. Diesel lift pumps are challenge but the install and total system even more so. What works in the summer may not in the winter and so forth. I've got left over Hilborn mechanical pumps that I used with a alternator belt drive setup for my VP-44 to P7100 conversion. Interested? The CP3 doesn't have the same demands as the VP44, P7100 or the Ford. The Duramax uses a CP3 but flows differently from the Dodge. Without it being my job to assure that our two year unlimited warranty doesn't bankrupt us (joking!) I would still be guessing about what to put where. I'm going to curb my postings for a bit, as I work for folks that promote/require great customer service and relations but also required that I sign a confidentially agreement so I don't give away what engineering time they've paid for. Good luck to you on finding the right system for your CTD.

 

[Wiredawg]

FASS has wirign harness/relay

I keep reading that the FASS doesn't come w/ wiring harness and relay... it does come with those.



I'm not going to knock anyone's product. I can only say this: The FASS is giving me peice of mind and works well. Brad was the only one who showed up at May Madness and had great demonstration set up. I've had it on my truck since May and it has worked very well.



I'll keep following the threads to see how each of these pumps hold up and performs.



Take care, Wiredawg

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

"We've sold a number of units to replace the Fass that have had their filters broken off, either off road or by hitting debris on the highway that catch the low hanging Fass. The AirDog bracket is solid and supports both ends, the Fass center mount only and needs reinforcement. "



Would you elaborate on this... . " filters broken off". . ? Holy cow... . and "low hanging"... . ? Wonder why mine doesn't hang down and hasn't broken off yet. Is this something I should be concerned about?



If your going to compare apples to apples the Preporator 135A is the same size as the FASS, but then we arent talking about the 135A now are we... . ? I have also seen the demonstration fuel table that was set up on the Two Guys Garage show and I have seen the one provided by FASS at TiM 04. They both do the same thing.



"The AirDog bracket is solid and supports both ends, the Fass center mount only and needs reinforcement. "



When mine was installed it didn't need any reinforcing..... ?



"The Fass doesn't use a relay. "



Yes the FASS does have a relay for it... I dont know if it comes with them now when they are purchased or not, nor do I believe you have to have one either. I haven't had one on mine since installed and have yet to have any trouble.



Just pointing out some inconsistencies here on your post Mr. Rodbolt.

 

[Roger rodbolt]

Git-R-Done,

Sorry if you feel confronted, it is not my intention to get into a mudslinging match but over and over I hear the AirDog and Fass used as if they are the same and they are not. If your FASS filters don't hang down then I wouldn't worry. The folks that have had trouble used the recommended mounting, the filters do hang down and if hit, the crack or break occurs at the threaded fitting where the filter attaches. Instant leak and truck stoppage.



Yes you are correct the Fass compares to our 135A because the Fass is a copy of the prototype 135A and this is a matter of court record. If the Fass demostration is similar to the Two Guy Garage show I wouldn't be least bit surprised. You say they both do the same thing? So do hand tools, wrenches are wrenches, they do the same thing... ... ... ... .....

We have ran 135A on pickups (MadDog has one on his 10 second truck) but the 135A and the Fass were designed for Class 8 trucks with different demands.

It's a fact that our 135A will not perform as well as the AirDog in the light truck application even though the 135A has a host of improvements since the Fass copy.



I can't follow your relay posting, you mention that Fass has a relay but it may not come with them... ... ... ... but you don't believe we have one. Here's what I know, every AirDog has a prewired harness that is controlled by a Bosch relay, every single one. We have a few new Fass units that we took in trade from dealers that switched to our AirDogs and none of them use a relay, even the ones with a 2004 build date. I did get a PM from a member who just bought a Fass and now wants an AirDog (his Fass is for sale in the TDR classified's) and his Fass has a relay. A relay is a good thing... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... . !

 

[rbattelle]

I feel I should comment on something here that "bothers" me a little. For the benefit of those who are not experienced with electrical systems, it's important to realize that there is absolutely nothing "special" about a relay. It doesn't improve performance, it doesn't make a system "better" in any way. The sole purpose in life for a relay is to take load off a switch. A relay uses a small electromagnet to actuate a switch. When you apply 12v across the electromagnet, it simply turns on power to your device. The advantage here is that the device that powers that tiny electromagnet experiences very very little load.



So why does the FASS and AirDog use a relay to turn on their pump when the factory pump doesn't? It's really simple: the FASS and AirDog pumps draw more current than the factory pump. If you were to hook directly to the ECM power source the load might be high enough to cause premature failure of the ECM. So they run the ECM signal (the "switch") through a relay so the ECM sees very little load (much less than even with the stock system in place).



Sometimes it seems like the FASS and AirDog crowd make a big deal about the fact that "we use a Bosch relay" or whatever and in reality there is absolutely nothing special about this relay (or any relay, for that matter). And who cares if it's made by Bosch?



Just wanted to get that out there for the benefit of those who don't really know what a relay is for... I'm not trashing anyone and my "tone" in this message is completely innocent. I just want people to be well informed.



-Ryan

 

[Roger rodbolt]

I feel I should comment on something here that "bothers" me a little. For the benefit of those who are not experienced with electrical systems, about a relay. It doesn't improve performance, it doesn't make a system "better" in any way. The sole purpose in life for a relay is to take load off a switch.



Sometimes it seems like the FASS and AirDog crowd make a big deal about the fact that "we use a Bosch relay" or whatever and in reality there is absolutely nothing special about this relay (or any relay, for that matter). And who cares if it's made by Bosch?



-Ryan

Ryan,

Thanks for sharing, we on TDR like to learn. It is much better to learn here then then hard way and I've done my share of that. I for one do CARE who makes the relay because I had a parts store, low quality relay, fail and caused me grief. When a fuel pump relay fails in a gasser running nitrous, the fuel mixture gets so lean that you are seconds from a meltdown .



A fuel system is only as good as it's weakest link and the fuse, wiring and/or relay must work if the pump is going to run. Years ago I learned that Bosch is the industry standard in automotive type relays, not to say there aren't other brands as good or better, but Bosch is like recommending a Fleetguard oil filter over a Fram for the CTD. Not are filters, parts, relays or etc. are created equal. I can't stress enough that the smallest item can make or break the sum of the parts. I've built and fly experimental airplanes and the a common quote is "if it quits you can't just park it and walk".



You are correct that we use a relay to take the load off the ECM but that's only part of the reason, the stock wiring is a problem too. We use the relay to transfer the lower ECM voltage to the higher battery voltage by using the relay to switch current draw to our heavy 14 gauge wire connected to the battery instead to the tiny (28ga. ??) factory wire from the ECM. This also allows us to safely run a fuse that is heavier then necessary for the motor and still protect the system, yet retains the ECM control for easy starting and safety. FWIW, low voltage is a problem (in cold weather) on stock lift pumps even on stock CTDs. Larry

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Mr. Rodbolt....

No mudslinging here, just wanted to clarify some of the things you were saying.



I kinda thought that you portrayed the FASS system as not up to par, with your comments like, "needs reinforcing" and "filters being knocked off".



Maybe I am totally off base here and there is a major problem that I dont know about.



Either way, I do have a question for you while I have your attention. Why have the dyno results not been posted as for the claims from your employers website: http://www.ekstamworldwide.com/lighttruck.htm



Charles had the Major TV time to do this but didn't ( Two Guys Garage ) Why? Where are the dyno results that PROVE that this fuel system does what is claimed? Tell all of us here how much of an increase in Horsepower and Torque we will see by installing the Air Dog on our trucks.



There was some testing of the preporator 135A out in California but they saw "little to no increase" in the horsepower. The related thread is here:https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90652&page=2&pp=40&highlight=Preporator



I believe its around post # 75-77 or so.



My point is this, if you got to make claims of HP/Tq, back it up. Just by saying it does this doesn't make it so. Many of the members here have done there own testing on the own time and money and that should have been done by the people whom make the product. Either way, I think these systems are much better than the stock set-up our trucks came with, and are an improvement to any diesel.

 

[Roger rodbolt]

Git-R-Done,

MarcRoth started this post and you may want to read his first two posts. He asked to us to compare the two pumps and later stated that he wasn't after more horsepower just wanted to support more horsepower. I don't sell the AirDog as horsepower enhancer, I don't even sell it for fuel mileage increase though that is the majority selling point for the Preporator on big rigs and marine. I can't remember bringing air separation into the discussion nor that Fass has only secondary separation and the AirDog has primary and secondary.



As to the question of horsepower gain, if you want cheap, quick horsepower on a CTD add more fuel. Just boost pump output on a P7100, add bigger injectors and electrics on the VP-44 and electronically increase the injection duration on the common rail. Even after you run short on air, adding more fuel will increase horsepower but by increasingly smaller amounts. I've observed VP-44 and common rails that had negative fuel pressure (or vacumn) at the lift pump and still made substantial horsepower. But just adding fuel may not be good for longevity, soot in the oil pan, egts, etc. Larger turbos, aftermarket camshafts, bigger exhaust, air filters are all part of the equation, yet I've not see much dyno or hp documentation on them either? The AirDog will support the larger flows and provide the stability and reliability that is missing on stock and many home grown systems. Removing entrained air is a good thing, any hydraulic system is affected by air. A bit of air in the brake line doesn't keep the brakes from applying but it may cause you doubt due to the delay , air in a backhoe or loader delays and pulsates the hydraulics and is similar to what happens with compressed air at the injector tip.



The old TDR thread you posted is probably why I was hired and shows what can go wrong and did. Charles gave a couple of the 135A (big) units to some folks with no installation kit or application engineering. Remember this company had lots of fuel experience but none in light trucks. The instructions that were given weren't followed..... That old thread makes my case. I've said before--- even the AirDog doesn't work well stuffed into the stock fuel system. The dynos that I've used are good for some tuning but of little use on determining things like off idle performance, cruise performance, towing performance, turbo performance in normal driving/towing and so on. I have no interest in testing any real world benefit on DynoJet in a common shop. If you follow some of my old sled pulling threads I state the the torque and horsepower curve or spread is much more important then a pointy peak on a dyno chart. I think that Fass does make specific horsepower gains but I don't. I do test the AirDog for reliability, pressure, flow and performance on every model/brand that I can find but I still have a lot to do. I've not tested the compatiblity of a '05 with a intank lift pump but there are individuals and dealers running the AirDog in the same.

 

[RAndrae]

Fass Prep Air Dog

Like I wrote earlier I have run and had all three. I have even run without the relay system. At theh time I got my FASS it didnt have the relay system included and I bought it separate. I would recommend that a person use the relay systen to not strain the fac system. the FASS and prep DO hang low and are vunerable. I built a plate to protect the filters. the air dog is alot smaller and the filters are well above the bottom of the frame although I still have the fiters protected.