FASS or ???

[steved]

OK, I travel extensively using this truck... can't afford a breakdown and wait period for a retrofit in-tank pump that doesn't seem any better... decided to go aftermarket (which I should be able to get parts for in a day)...



I like the FASS design with filters, etc... and they are available for my 04. 5... and comes as a complete kit and seems like a straight forward install.



The RASP seems like a waste because because it still uses the factory lift pump... since they no longer offer my lift pump, I'd be forced to install an aftermarket LP or have a in-tank on installed. I still have no idea how it bypasses the factory LP to get to the filter (I haven't really looked under my hood to study it either)... and it doesn't come as a kit like the FASS.



I haven't seen to many Airdog kits mentioned... not even sure if they offer anything for the newer trucks.



Both have drawbacks... the FASS seems to have issues (and poor customer service) and the RASP utilizes the factory LP. What are other pro/cons?



Any other ideas?? Any other options?? Or should I just have the in-tank pump installed?? I've already spent more money on a truck that is 1. 5 years old with 50k than I did in 200k on my 99 CTD... disappointed in dodge.



steved

 

[abdiver]

I think there Air Dog has a slightly better track record than FASS One poster was complaining the girl that answered the phone at Air Dog would not tell him if there were any after market filters for it. I called and asked for tech help I had to wait for Ken to call me back it did take two days I asked him about after market filters he said THEY didn't like to tell everyone this But YES Fleetguard had them. I already knew this from a TDR thread. They wanted $800 I bought it from Texas for 750 and free shipping I will keep a couple sets of filters on hand and will look into any weak point in system so I can hopefully do a repair to get home if lets say the motor dies Perhaps I will have to have a spare motor ??



Bill

 

[mberry]

The RASP seems like a waste because because it still uses the factory lift pump... since they no longer offer my lift pump...

steved

The RASP uses the factory pump as a backup only. You wanted reliability right? That's a built in redundant system already installed on your truck.



ELIMINATES NEED FOR CARRYING SPARE PUMP IN YOUR TOOLBOX: No more being stranded worry's with this pump system because the KO fuel system is plumbed in parallel to your present system so you always have a back up.

 

[steved]

The RASP uses the factory pump as a backup only. You wanted reliability right? That's a built in redundant system already installed on your truck.



ELIMINATES NEED FOR CARRYING SPARE PUMP IN YOUR TOOLBOX: No more being stranded worry's with this pump system because the KO fuel system is plumbed in parallel to your present system so you always have a back up.

Agreed, but what happens when that pump (which already has over 50k) dies? It is redundant until then, then I don't have a replacement.



I'm looking the AirDog over right now... haven't seen a price, but... seems to be a better unit than a FASS (reading responses).



I'm going to look up Stanadyne too... just saw that one.



steved

 

[radar doctor]

boy i sure hope you explore all the options as i haven't decided what to do to my 03. . i surely like the idea of a back up mounted and working... . wouldn't be nice to be on the factory unit then when it broke just reach under there and turn a value. and be on another unit. . in fact if you could do this you could run on one for awhile then the other and realize no down time... some one on the TDR surely has this figured out?? would you share it with us??? how about Pictures too??? THANKS ----DOC

 

[steved]

A redundant system sounds good, but the plumbing would be a nightmare... I guess it wouldn't be rocket science, but it would be $$$. I mean in theory, you could just run two systems... two FASS, two Airdogs, one of each... one that is just a pump, the other a filter... etc... I haven't heard whether or not either the FASS or Airdog can have fuel pumped through them (like a factory lift pump)... you could piggyback a pump on them that you could use as a backup should the main pump die...



The more i look at the RASP, the more I don't like it... it hangs down, could easily be torn off if you hit something... I do occasionally offroad and I could imagine the first stick I came to popping up and removing it or the fancy bracket. The design is good, just not really well thought out (especially in respect to not offering a complete install kit). Plus, you always have the chance the LP is going to die... Not that you couldn't damage a FASS or AD, but if you mount them inside the bed under the rail, it'd be a little tougher to do...



I'm also leary of the cold temps too (it occasionally gets to -20... and I have been exposed to close to -40 before)... definately need to add a fuel heater into the cost...



steved

 

[DHayden]

If your concerns are the unit hanging low, the FASS filters droop quite a bit lower than the Airdog. FASS also uses hydraulic filters which I didnt particularly care for but it may not be a problem. When I installed my Airdog I just left the factory fuel lines in place and capped them off. If the Airdog ever does go out it should only be about a ten minute job tops to hook up the old system to get me going again.

 

[steved]

I like that idea of leaving the stock system sitting there... might be a worthwhile idea.



As for hanging down... I have seen FASS/AD systems mounted in the bed, along the driver's side front corner... semi out-of-the-way... most likely the way I would mount as long as the FASS/AD would be happy that far above the tank.



I feel that anything hanging down in front of the driver's tire will succomb to road salt after half a good pennsylvania winter...



steved

 

[rbattelle]

As for hanging down... I have seen FASS/AD systems mounted in the bed, along the driver's side front corner... semi out-of-the-way... most likely the way I would mount as long as the FASS/AD would be happy that far above the tank.

I wouldn't do it. Most external fuel pumps specifically instruct the installer to mount it as close to the tank as possible, and as far below the bottom of the tank as practical. Fuel pumps don't really like sucking.



Your concerns about things hanging under the frame are quite valid, in my opinion. As are your concerns about a fuel heater. Dodge provides a nice little 300W fuel heater as part of the stock canister. I think that an ideal low pressure fuel system would retain the stock canister, along with its WIF sensor, fuel heater, drain valve, and water separator. These are just opinions. Many will disagree, as most people here are running FASS or AirDog with excellent results (although I've read a lot about problems with FASS brushes).



FASS and AirDog are nice because they come as an almost turnkey setup. It's like buying a prebuilt computer - works great and takes no time to set up, but you've got to accept compromises.



-Ryan

 

[abdiver]

Air Dog 749.50

Agreed, but what happens when that pump (which already has over 50k) dies? It is redundant until then, then I don't have a replacement.



I'm looking the AirDog over right now... haven't seen a price, but... seems to be a better unit than a FASS (reading responses).



I'm going to look up Stanadyne too... just saw that one.



steved

Air Dog 749. 50

http://www.dieselinnovations.com/dodge_cummins/24v/dodge_24_fuel.htm





Here is where I got mine they ask for you to call for pricing because when Air Dog new owners (3 Lawyers) I understand They raised price way up and didn't tell some of the suppliers, suppliers got stuck with quoting customers a lower price and then got billed a highe price for the New units. They quoted me 749. 50 and there is free shipping when you order it online I mentioned the free shipping online when I called in and Dave said I will take order and give you the free shipping, so I didn't have to go back to my computer.



Good luck, Bill



http://www.dieselinnovations.com/dodge_cummins/24v/dodge_24_fuel.htm

 

[abdiver]

I have not gotten my Air Dog yet but a redundant system is a good idea if it can be done in a practical way. Kinda like the way we carry a spare tire or two and Winch etc



I planning to go to Baja a few times and love camping with a 22' trailer. So in Baja there are some places I can't get to with this setup but I did that stuff in the 80's Also like spending time in Mojave lots of back roads from Baja through and to Canada, So back up systems to get me out are nice to have.



How some one smarter than me has a good idea to keep the stock setup with Air Dog

 

[steved]

Your concerns about things hanging under the frame are quite valid, in my opinion. As are your concerns about a fuel heater. Dodge provides a nice little 300W fuel heater as part of the stock canister. I think that an ideal low pressure fuel system would retain the stock canister, along with its WIF sensor, fuel heater, drain valve, and water separator. These are just opinions. Many will disagree, as most people here are running FASS or AirDog with excellent results (although I've read a lot about problems with FASS brushes).



-Ryan

The only problem I see with plumbing it all together is the fact that you would be adding more restriction to the fuel system... not only would you be going through two filters, but then through the stock housing, stock banjos, stock tubing, etc, etc... it sounds good, don't get me wrong, but the restrictions would hinder you I feel.



As for a redundant system, I think I'll order the AD or FASS and just leave the stock system hang on the side of the engine... drain all the fuel out of it to prevent issues if I ever needed to swap it back in... then maybe pump some transmission fluid through it for storage (or even some marvel mystery oil or PS??)



I also plan on ordering at least two sets of spare brushes... and a fuel heater... should be alright since the fuel gets returned to the tank... as long as there is an antigel in the fuel... shouldn't be an issue.



steved

 

[Graphic man]

any electric pump will die!!! RASP is a mec. pump with a 5 year warranty and you still have a back-up (factory L/P)



it does not hang down! and does not get in the way of anything



i have spent years racing and have replaced tons of electric pumps but never a mec. pump!!



look at all the big racers... ... . NASCAR NHRA etc. etc. etc. what do they use??? not electric pumps!



just my $0. 02



Scott

 

[steved]

any electric pump will die!!! RASP is a mec. pump with a 5 year warranty and you still have a back-up (factory L/P)



it does not hang down! and does not get in the way of anything



i have spent years racing and have replaced tons of electric pumps but never a mec. pump!!



look at all the big racers... ... . NASCAR NHRA etc. etc. etc. what do they use??? not electric pumps!



just my $0. 02



Scott

Since I have already poked holes in radiators, ripped of fan belts, etc, etc, etc... I have my reservations that the RASP wouldn't last very long hanging down under the front of a truck that is driven anywhere but on a highway.



My concern isn't really replacing an electric pump. It is the fact, that from my readings, DC does not offer a STOCK replacement pump and the replacement retrofit in-tank pump doesn't seem to be a viable solution. I'm going for something that is more or less standard that, even if I do replace the electric motor every 100k, it is still cheaper than the DC alternative (and more reliable).



Even mechanical pumps have problems... they still have seals, they have bearings, the RASP has a problem prone belt drive (IMHO - why do you think they send two belts if it isn't a known problem??). And another thing to think about... the RASP is a gear drive design... you will need to remove it from the fuel circuit to run the LP as a backup since that is a positive displacement pump that (if a true positive displacement pump) will not allow flow through if it dies. So you are back to hooking and unhooking hoses.



And you still rely on the factory lift pump to get it started. Too much "stuff" when the FASS/AD removes the factory LP completely. If you think about it, I don't believe it is actual running that hurts the LP, I believe it is the fact it is undersized (lowest bidder) and close to the engine and being literally cooked... electric motors don't like heat... that is the reason the factory LP lasts longer near the tank... not because it is pushing versus pulling, but because the heat and vibration has been removed.



I personally do not like the RASP because it isn't a kit... you are responsible for plumbing it in... see, they do that so the RASP looks close in $$$ as the FASS/AD, when in reality, it will cost well over $1000 just to get it in (and hopefully plumbed in correcty) into the truck. You supply the hose, the check valves, the filters, the fittings, etc, etc, etc... it adds up quickly.



So, at this point, it is basically pick the aftermarket one looks the best... install it knowing it is about equal to a factory unit (but still in production), and plan on replacing brushes once in a while.



I wish it was as simple as "ok, I'm buying the mechanical one only... no electrics". If I was buying this for a "street" only truck, then the RASP would definately be in the running, but because this truck sees a little bit of everything, even a low hanging FASS is better protected than the RASP IMO.



I didn't write this to bash the RASP, but just to give you another view...



steved

 

[srichard]

Have you seen this:

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=78702

 

[steved]

Good writeup and definately something to keep in mind... but one thing I don't have is access to a mill or lather to turn the banjo bolts down for the nipple... I guess I'm going to need to study this some more since I though the IP had a return line to the tank already... I'll need to look again.



steved

 

[steved]

Anyone have a link to the Airdog... none of the older links work.



Anyone have a "preferred" place to get either the FASS or AD???



steved

 

[srichard]

you should be able to buy already drilled/tapped/NPT'ed banjo bolts - look at vendors that sell kits to install fuel gauges for example.

 

[steved]

you should be able to buy already drilled/tapped/NPT'ed banjo bolts - look at vendors that sell kits to install fuel gauges for example.

I don't know if those banjo bolts are the same size as the ones on the IP... but maybe.



I got to read that more thoroughly later today... that doesn't seem to difficult to do since he already did the legwork. Using a FASS or AD to feed it would be more than sufficient... he said 250L/hr at a psi or two... that shouldn't too hard to get to.



I read the thread where the guy ripped the filters off his FASS recently... that would suck.



steved

 

[srichard]

the banjo I got for my FP gauge is suposed to go on the CP3...

why pay extra $$$ for the FASS pump (~$500) when you can use the Walbro he references for less than $200?