Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) FASS Pumps

[blacksheepdiesel]

steved,



Culligan has been dominate in water softener sales for decades because of marketing even though the product is not even comparable to the Kinetico products I sell. Market share in the case of lift pumps is because of marketing and timing, not because the FASS is a better product.



By the way, Culligan & others introduced a twin tank water softener after Kinetico entered the market with one. The Culligan is definitely a response, and a very poor one at that. Really the only resemblance is that it has two resin tanks like the Kinetico. Operation, longevity, efficiency, performance, capability, and cost of maintenence is much lower for the Kinetico, the Cullligan is simply a marketing ploy and a poor one at that.



FASS came to the market when 2nd gen Dodge/Cummins guys were frantically searching for an answer to the ongoing lift pump fiasco. Voila! The Holy Grail? Not hardly. Have many truck owners been satisfied with their FASS and had little or no problems? Yes! Have many others been unsatisfied and had single or multiple issues? Yes!



The AirDog set the standard for electric lift pump filter systems. Just because some of the features are copied does not mean the copy is a good one. And just because the FASS has more market share does not mean the FASS is better (PowerStroke vs Cummins?).



I agree totally with you that the availability of info on the AirDog leaves a lot to be desired. Technical support is readily available. Warranty support is readily available (although the guy in warranty is like the Maytag man - bored to death).



If a poor copy is good enough for you then so be it. However, I will not be swayed from offering my experienced opinion on AirDog when the opportunity arises.



Trent

 

[pacersfan]

The FASS has issues that the AirDog does not because it(FASS) is a copied product. This does not mean it is identical - just that the general ideas are copied. Obviously if it(FASS) was a blueprint copy, it would be CNC machined instead of cut from blocks of aluminum then stuck together with gaskets. They copied the general ideas, but can not figgure out why they are having issues. WHY? Because you can not perfect something you do not understand. Their "new and improved" motor is even failing.

 

[KDoerr]

Good Day all I have had the FASS now for 3 years and have over a million Km on my FASS and never had to do a thing to it. A year ago I bought new brushes for it and did not even had to put them in yet. So I would only buy the FASS system. It is clean and easy to maintain.

 

[Jefff929]

Again, frustrating “Bankspeak” in place of rational this is better and this is how & why.

pacersfan & blacksheepdiesel,



Are you two paying attention? hard to imagine you are



tell me what is better how and why, post the links to the facts please.



knock off the crap

 

[steved]

Their "new and improved" motor is even failing.

It is??



Funny, I have 40k on mine without any issues with the motor... and I have not really heard of anyone having issues with the newer internal brushed motor on the FASS...



Cite your source of this "failing" problem... I'd like to read up on it...



steved

 

[Jefff929]

If they can’t cite sources they have no credibility.

 

[pacersfan]

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164126&highlight=AirDog



http://dodgetruckworld.tenmagazines.com/forums/topic.ten?id=221039



Here are two.



Sorry, I thought the reason the AirDog is superior was obvious. I will go over it again for you.



Size - more compact package tucks up under the truck very well. Mine is mounted above the skid plate directly behind the transfer case between the frame rails. Talk about protection. You could never do that with a FASS! FASS often can be seen from standing looking at the truck from the outside. I have a friend that knocked off the fuel filter out in the middle of no where when a stick hit it.



Better mounting - Does this really need further explanation.



Much better finish Does this really need explaining? If it does, you have obviously never seen the two side by side. For those that have not seen the two, The AirDog looks like a finished product. The FASS looks like a prototype. The chunks of aluminum sealed by fiber gaskets is just taking the cheap way out when building it and leads to issues later. Does this need explained better, or does it make sense now?



1/2" lines tank to pump This was copied on the bigger FASS, but last time I checked, the FASS 95 still use 3/8"



Readily available 2 micron filtration. Less is better here. Fuel systems are getting more and more sensitive to wear particles. It is nice to have a filter that filters fuel down to such a fine rating.

 

[Jefff929]

size is subjective as is the mounting and finish "betters" mentioned. I remain unconvinced and the sources cited are just other forums with more opinions.



EDIT: I'm done, and so is your credibility



Good bye.

 

[pacersfan]

So you like a bulky unit that is hard to protect without putting it in the bed. You like the weak FASS bracket, and don't mind short cuts in a $600 fuel system. My sources are on a open forum, so they are unreliable, and I have no credibility because You do not agree with me.



OK, fair enough your opinion. :-laf

 

[MVieira]

I put an AirDog on my truck awhile back and I'm very happy with it. It idles at 13 to14 psi. , cruises at 11 to 12 psi. with my 28' 5th wheel in tow, and I haven't been able to draw it down below 10 psi. under load or full throttle. It's compact and tucks up behind the transfer case and is protected by the skid plate, which was important to me. Another plus is that it is very quiet, you can't hardly hear the pump run unless you climb under the truck. I strongly looked at the RASP but all the extra plumbing, check valves, switch, and price of a complete kit scared me away. If you look at peoples signatures on this site you will see more than a couple of people with an AirDog on their trucks, but if you search AirDog and read all the threads I haven't found anyone complaining about them yet. These were just my reasons for going to the Airdog. Regards, Mike.

 

[driverno8]

Airdog has been on my truck now for 50,000+ miles. Not one leak. Not one motor problem. Nothing. All I've done is change the filters. Which I buy by the case for about $6 a piece. Idling I'm at 17-18psi. At WOT, guess what, still 17-18psi. I agree with above statement. Do a search on TDR about AirDog. You're not going to read anything negative other then the few things that have been said here. And that's the availability of it.

 

[steved]

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164126&highlight=AirDog



http://dodgetruckworld.tenmagazines.com/forums/topic.ten?id=221039



Here are two.



Sorry, I thought the reason the AirDog is superior was obvious. I will go over it again for you.



Size - more compact package tucks up under the truck very well. Mine is mounted above the skid plate directly behind the transfer case between the frame rails. Talk about protection. You could never do that with a FASS! FASS often can be seen from standing looking at the truck from the outside. I have a friend that knocked off the fuel filter out in the middle of no where when a stick hit it.



Better mounting - Does this really need further explanation.



Much better finish Does this really need explaining? If it does, you have obviously never seen the two side by side. For those that have not seen the two, The AirDog looks like a finished product. The FASS looks like a prototype. The chunks of aluminum sealed by fiber gaskets is just taking the cheap way out when building it and leads to issues later. Does this need explained better, or does it make sense now?



1/2" lines tank to pump This was copied on the bigger FASS, but last time I checked, the FASS 95 still use 3/8"



Readily available 2 micron filtration. Less is better here. Fuel systems are getting more and more sensitive to wear particles. It is nice to have a filter that filters fuel down to such a fine rating.

And these make the Airdog a better unit how? How something mounts, it's finish, 2 micron filter vs the FASS's 3 micron (oooh, there's a real point )... and other stuff don't necessarily make it better.



I like my FASS where it's mounted... I don't have to crawl under the truck to drain the filter. Oh, that's right, you like crawling around in the slop to drain your filters.



The finish on the FASS is anodized aluminum... mine still looks fine... even after a PA winter and all that road salt?



IMHO, there is no clear cut "better" LP, but I love the AirDog guys who desperately feel they need to make every argument that they paid for a much better unit when in fact, they have about the same track record... but they need to justify the added cost to themselves and everyone else...



And where is the link on the failing FASS motor?? I'm still curious about that...



And like I have said in the past... kinda hard to compare the problems of a FASS with those of an AirDog when (IMO by simply reading these boards) it appears the AirDog is outnumbered 20 to 1. That means there are more units in use that might actually fail... kinda hard to have a unit fail that you don't have in use like the airdog. Sorta like GM a few years ago... they had the highest number of tow-ins according to Ford... what Ford didn't tell you was that GM also had the most cars on the road too.



I'm done with this thread...



steved

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

steved,



quote "... they have about the same track record... "



Where in tarnation did you get that "factual" information? I would like to know your sources so I could try to understand your logic. If you have the facts then it must have come from the AirDog warranty department. Yes?



BTW, 5% is 5% whether we are talking about 5% of 1000 or 5% of two hundred. When talking about component failure it is used as a percentage of the total number of units.

The PowerStroke loyalists use the logic that there are more of them on the road so there are more of them that fail. Sounds to me like you should have bought a Ford.



Quote from Diesel Dan post #24 on the thread "Shutting off PM's and E-Mails here's why"

"Im not making excuses, im just telling it like it is. These new motors have been Bullet proof thus far. I even have had some bearings fail and the motor still pumps the 15-18 PSI no sweat!"



Bullet proof even though the bearings failed??? No comprehend.



Trent

 

[LowFly]

Quote from Diesel Dan post #24 on the thread "Shutting off PM's and E-Mails here's why"

"Im not making excuses, im just telling it like it is. These new motors have been Bullet proof thus far. I even have had some bearings fail and the motor still pumps the 15-18 PSI no sweat!"



Bullet proof even though the bearings failed??? No comprehend.



Trent

OK... i stay out of these types of threads until i am brought into it. When you have over 10,000 units out on the market... you can expect some failures, issues and trouble shooting. Some are hardware issues. Some are customer induced. Hence why i am here. I see every issue with the FASS/HPFP. EVERY ISSUE. These motors are doing VERY well for us (Which, if I recall correctly, AirDog is using the same style of motor). To imply 100% of product, that is out on the market, is 100% perfect 100% of the time is asinine. BUT i can say that I am 100% confident that we are producing a top notch quality product that many people are very satisfied with.

 

[steved]

IMHO, there is no clear cut "better" LP, but I love the AirDog guys who desperately feel they need to make every argument that they paid for a much better unit when in fact, they have about the same track record... but they need to justify the added cost to themselves and everyone else...



steved

Ahem... I restate this.



And I must get my facts from the same places you do... nothing is 100% failure free... you can't tell me there hasn't been a single failed AirDog??



If the AirDog was as good as you claim, why is the FASS more widely used? Surely everyone, including myself, would have paid more for something with a PERFECT track record... ohh, wait, we don't know what the track record for the AD is do we?? Other than "their great!"



You keep pushing the AD, but I see no facts. I also am more inclined to buy a product in which the rep is honest... bearing failure? Cool, at least he's not blowing smoke up my skirt and telling me there's been absolutely no issues.



I'm done now...



steved



steved

 

[pacersfan]

You guys crack me up. You do not see the links? You even re-posted them and you don't see them? :-laf



You can not see the benefit of 1/2" lines? Here is one. Buy a AirDog and decide to upgrade to a HP model. All you buy is the motor. With a FASS, you buy the motor, the entire fuel line system - tank to pump, fittings and hose, and possibly more.



You can not see the benefit of better protection of the unit? Maybe guys that leave the highway do. I do not mind the AirDog being mounted under the truck, it is virtually impossible to hurt it where it is mounted. When the fuel filter is changed every 30,000 miles I use a drain pan. It keeps me from having to roll around in slop. If you want it on the side of the frame it is an option on the AirDog, but mounting a FASS under the truck is impossible with a FASS.



2 micron filter for the AirDog in under ten bucks.

The 3 micron Fleetguard hydraulic filter used as a fuel filter is $78. 33. I am sure you could shop around and find it a little cheaper.



Anyone that has seen them side by side understands what I mean by finish. It is not the anodized look, it is the actual machining process. No corners were cut on the AirDog, but the FASS looks like it was put together as cheap as possible. Maybe you do not care how it looks, but when paying so much for these units, why buy something built so cheaply.



Some people would never admit a product is better no matter what. Look at the Ford guys on their third buyback and they STILL love the Powerstroke. Whatever. I am sure those shopping for a fuel system will consider these points even though you two do not care.



For the record, I am not trying to justify the higher price, it is not that much - and I would do it again. If an AirDog was not an option, I would go with the glacier system. It is a very durable pump as well.

 

[LowFly]

This is the one and only time i will say this and im done! Im here for product support... . not to get into ******* matches... ... so listen up:

You can not see the benefit of 1/2" lines? Here is one. Buy a AirDog and decide to upgrade to a HP model. All you buy is the motor. With a FASS, you buy the motor, the entire fuel line system - tank to pump, fittings and hose.

1/2" line is not needed. Period. BUT we do offer the option for it on our 150 series kits. I got guys with over 600HP, 95 and 150 GPH pumps with 3/8 line with NO FUELING ISSUES ONE BIT!

You can not see the benefit of better protection of the unit? Maybe guys that leave the highway do. I do not mind the AirDog being mounted under the truck, it is virtually impossible to hurt it where it is mounted. When the fuel filter is changed every 30,000 miles I use a drain pan. It keeps me from having to roll around in slop. If you want it on the side of the frame it is an option on the AirDog, but mounting a FASS under the truck is impossible with a FASS.

Moot point. Move on. I never once got a call about a FASS that was damaged due to being mouned where it was. Not saying that it doesnt not happen... but if one gets stupid enough..... one can tare up a anvil with a rubber hammer. For 99% of the people out there, its not an issue. If they feel they have an issue with off road, we have the HPFP or the new 95 Series.



ALSO i see a big deal made out of our frame brackets. Again... never once had an issue with a unit that fell off due to the bracket cracking and brakeing. Not one.

2 micron filter for the AirDog in under ten bucks.

The 3 micron Fleetguard hydraulic filter used as a fuel filter is $78. 33. I am sure you could shop around and find it a little cheaper.

Our filters go 60,000+ miles (Been tested past 90,000). This is 4 times longer than the stock filter. We dont recomend bottom of the line filters. These are microglass and stratapore filters. Not paper... they do cost more. BUT Baldwin fitlers do have a 3 micron for around $18 or so.

Anyone that has seen them side by side understands what I mean by finish. It is not the anodized look, it is the actual machining process. No corners were cut on the AirDog, but the FASS looks like it was put together as cheap as possible. Maybe you do not care how it looks, but when paying so much for these units, why buy something built so cheaply.

First off, we only use one gasket. It is on the motor base. AND this gasket has SOOO much surface area, it would take an act of God to get it to leak. All other junctions are O-Rings. Never once has a properly installed O-ring leaked at a junction. End of story. Our design is simple, yes. Crude, no. Bottom line -- it work... . and it works well.

Some people would never admit a product is better no matter what. Look at the Ford guys on their third buyback and they STILL love the Powerstroke. Whatever. I am sure those shopping for a fuel system will consider these points even though you two do not care.

Are you trying to start a panic here? You must take more FASS wnty calls than I do then. Im just not seeing this... .....





If you feel the need to bash FASS to gain sales (Whether if be for yourself or AirDog), that’s fine. Its a big market, and we think healthy competition is fine. BUT, im not going to be sucked into "One of those FASS vs. AirDog" threads. That is not why I am on here and other sites. SO I’m done with this thread... ... .

 

[SBartel]

1/2" line is not needed. Period. BUT we do offer the option for it on our 150 series kits. I got guys with over 600HP, 95 and 150 GPH pumps with 3/8 line with NO FUELING ISSUES ONE BIT! ... ... .

Words of a true salesman. If this is true, why copy the larger lines on the AirDog. Why not just leave them 3/8 inch? The 1/2 inch lines sure add to the cost - if the 3/8 inch is fine why switch?

Moot point. Move on. I never once got a call about a FASS that was damaged due to being mouned where it was. Not saying that it doesnt not happen... but if one gets stupid enough..... one can tare up a anvil with a rubber hammer. For 99% of the people out there, its not an issue. If they feel they have an issue with off road, we have the HPFP or the new 95 Series.



ALSO i see a big deal made out of our frame brackets. Again... never once had an issue with a unit that fell off due to the bracket cracking and brakeing. Not one.

I am the guy that had a stick break off the fuel filter on a 2 week old FASS. I was hauling hay out of a field, nothing too extreme. Some even consider this every day work for a Cummins. You may not remember it, but I sure do. It broke the filter housing where the filter screws on. I called you (FASS) and was told it was not your problem not a warranty issue. I suppose It was damage, not warranty, but it is your mount that lets it hang down in harms way!!! Had I purchased an AirDog to start with I would have saved the $600 I wasted on a FASS. The stick would have never hit the AirDog. I ripped out the entire system and sold it for $200 to someone that used it to build a stand alone pump. I now run an AirDog, just wish I had done it right the first time.



I like things built tough, I gotta agree that bracket looks pretty weak. Glad nobody has had one break - it would sure ruin your day to have it break. The Fass would hit the ground, get run over by the rear tire, rip out the fuel lines, spill diesel all over the highway, and leave you sitting praying nobody calls EPA. Know what the fines are for spilled fuel? DOT will bring in a clean up crew and the truck owner will foot the bill. I would have to build my own brackets for the FASS, I like things built tough and that bracket is borderline at best.

Our filters go 60,000+ miles (Been tested past 90,000). This is 4 times longer than the stock filter. We dont recomend bottom of the line filters. These are microglass and stratapore filters. Not paper... they do cost more. BUT Baldwin fitlers do have a 3 micron for around $18 or so

I don't know how far the AirDog is good for - 60,000-90,000 maybe can not answer that I change mine at 30k as well. For the price I do not see the need to go any further. The AirDog filter is Stratapore - best available. I will not settle for paper. At least we agree here. Price is even comparable if you use a Baldwin filter on the FASS.

First off, we only use one gasket. It is on the motor base. AND this gasket has SOOO much surface area, it would take an act of God to get it to leak. All other junctions are O-Rings. Never once has a properly installed O-ring leaked at a junction. End of story. Our design is simple, yes. Crude, no. Bottom line -- it work... . and it works well.

I gotta say, crude is a pretty good word for the FASS. I have owned both, the FASS is not near as refined as the AirDog. The differances are minor, but I must say I was never impressed with the FASS for many reasons already mentioned. It FASS cut so many obvious corners, what did they do with the not so obvious?

 

[PRout]

So, In Summary. .

Everyone knows the biggest differences between the two units are the price. .

And the character of their customers of course. .

 

[KDoerr]

Air Dog is No good I live up in Canada and I never had the filters freeze up on me. Buddy of mine has Air dog and mounted it on the skid plate and now in the winter he has to crawl under the truck to remove the ice and the snow from the filters. So IS IT BETTER? FASS you mount it and you are Done and with over a millon Km and no work to the FASS I'm not complaining.