Fastcooler for NV4500 & NV5600- Take a look...

[DEZLPWR]

I saw the ad for the fastcooler on page 13 of the latest TDR magazine. Here's the website link: http://www.fastcoolers.com/index.html



Does any one want to comment on this? Is it worth the $250? It seems like a good idea, but I have never heard it discussed before on the TDR forums.

It seems like it would be accomplishing much of what the Mag Hytec does for the diff.

Does anyone have this on their truck?



Steve

 

[Ray Torresdal]

EXTRUSIONS

If someone had a die made to make these extrusions just for this application, he has some serious $$ to recoup! It sounds a little pricey, but if he doesn't sell these by the gross, it may not begin to cover his up front cost. I'm guessing that this is a pretty new product, as I've not seen it before. I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has tried it, also. Ray

 

[SLittle]

I may be wrong but I've never heard of an overheating problem with the manual trannies so this product is more of a nifty little add on than a problem solver or performance enhancer. However, there are lots of people that just have to have every little gizmo that come along and they could probably sell a lot of these, but not at $250 a pop.



Granted there are up front costs but what would the actual unit cost be to produce each one? Let's just say it's $10 each, so if they sell 200 @ 250 they are netting $48,000. Now if they sold them for $60 each I think they would sell more like 2,000 of them netting $100,000. Of course there is more packaging, labor, yadda yadda yadda with the higher volume but the more gross income the more net income.



Yes, it's a slow day at work, all I know is I would buy 10 Mag-Hytek rear diff covers at $235 a pop before I would pay $250 for one of these things.



Scott

 

[boone]

I'm gonna guess that the extrusion die cost him 5 to 6k. I could tell you about what the cost of the material and machining is but I don't want to upset anyone. At $250. 00 it won't take him very long to pay off his investment. I'm not sure the price is right for me but I hope he makes a go at it.



If anyone has ideas like this and would like a professional opinion as to tooling and part cost feel free to email me. I'm a MFG. Engineer/Design Eng. that works with vendors all over the country. My whole life is value engineering.



-- email address removed --

 

[Ray Torresdal]

minimum order size

Just to play devils advocate here: And what do you think the minimum run size is for an extrusion like this? When we've checked into it, between the die, and the minimum order size, there is pretty serious money involved. As I said in my first post, $250 sounds a little pricey, but I'll bet good money his minimum order size will probably keep him in parts for a lifetime! (Even at $50/pair)



Ray

 

[drawson]

Looks like you replace both sides. For heavy towing it would do some good. It says it increases the oil cap 44% it has to be alot longer than it looks for 1 3/4 quart Cap.



It would have been better with a few pencil extentions on the inside.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Just putting my $. 02 in here (take it for what it's worth). Until you've spent the time necessary to develop a product and get it to market along with all of the associated costs you have no idea how it can add up. Whoever is producing these (I have no affiliation, btw) is not doing it out of the goodness of his heart - it's to make money to feed his/her family. Just a few of the costs that have not been addressed here at all include:



R&D

costs to patent the item to help protect yourself from your idea being stolen (BELIEVE ME - not a small cost, check out lawyers fees! I have patents I've been working on for YEARS)

packaging costs

installation instructions

wages for someone to box them up and ship them out

rent on the space where the company is operating out of

wages for the person answering the phone

phone costs

advertising

web page development costs

web hosting costs

credit card fees (yes, the person you are buying from has to pay from 1. 5% to 3% of your purchase to the credit card company)

liability insurance

taxes

accountants costs to file those d&^%$ taxes

losses from bad checks

shipping losses from returned items

losses from product damaged in shipping (even if UPS replaces the part you have to spend time to file for the loss)

the cost of money - if it's an item that requires a large production run you have to put a large investment into that stock - that money could have been sitting in an investment earning money during that time rather than sitting on a shelf collecting dust



These are REAL costs and BELIEVE me they add up! The cost to actually produce a part is a very small piece of the pie. For an extreme example think of a software manufacturer - once a package is developed it costs $2 to produce the CD to ship that product out - do you see Microsoft selling their software for $4? No, they have to recoup all the other costs involved. You have to make a decision for yourself - is the money they are asking worth the improvement? If so then buy it - if not don't, but don't beat someone up over the price of their product because you don't know what all went into it. I can assure you that noone that is producing something wants their price to be too high - in almost every case there is a very good reason it's priced where it is. In todays world there is simply FAR too much competition for anyone to do otherwise. JMHO



-Steve St. Laurent

Supplier of SS Ladder Bars

 

[Fast 1]

Thanks Steve for your post, very well put. Pricing them was a very difficult thing to do. The following tests by Fast Coolers will help you decide where your concerns should be as far as temperatures or overheating issues. Here they are. On a 105 degree day, towing temps. are as follows.



front diff - 122 degree = ok to me

rear diff - 167 degree = just fine

transfer case - 163 degree = perfect

engine - 206 degree = warm but thats what cummins wants

NV 5600 - 230 degrees = warm but thats what NV Gear wants



Previously on a 97 Cummins with 330,00 miles which had alot of trannys replaced, but only one ring and pinion replaced in the rear diff. Thier was no question what part of my truck needed attention. Check the transmission life expectancy charts in earlier TDR issues they tell it all. If you really had to pick and choose from the above temps, what should you be concerned about ?



The oil in the Fast Cooler in constantly 10 degrees cooler than the oil in the case itself. If the case in 230 degree, the fast cooler is 220 degree. Five to ten degrees difference in the transmission life expentancy charts adds thousands of miles to the life of your transmission



We'll be set up at Diesel Extravagana 2001 in Terre Haure, IN . Hope to see you there.



Still working out the kinks in the e-mail @ www.fastcoolers.com

Hope your e-mails were't lost



Verlyn R. Fast



Fast Coolers

 

[JJW_ND]

NVG 4500 data!

While I think 230 degrees with 30w oil in the NVG5600 is possible, it is too high for a NVG4500 running 90W oil. Maybe possible with a 350 + hp engine pulling 30K but then trans oil temps might be the least of your repair worries.



I have test (oil) the 30W Texaco fluid and it tested more like a gear oil the an engine oil. 220 degrees is not a problem with engine oil and from what I have read, should not bother gear oil at all.



I have monitered the trans oil temp (sender drilled and tapped into the side of PTO plate) for 197,000 miles in my 96 5sp 4x4. While I live in ND, all my pulls started in KS or IA. Lots of hot weather to test. Engine turned up enough to pull all but 1 or 2 extreme loads in 5th. Highest I have ever seen is 190. It was at or near 190 for several hour, serveral different days (trips). These highest temps were at 140K miles or more on the trans (maybe alittle wear had something to do with the higher temps). Most of the time it is at 150 - 175 while pulling. Running empty is not even worth discussing. This is with my original trans that had problems keeping 5 gear on. It failed for the last time at 150K. I replace with new at the time but now realize the Standard trans shaft was all I need. The rebuild shop found no evidence that oil (failure) had anything to do with the problems. Syncro and bearing all in good shape. Someone got a great rebuilt trans. I do not know what the design requirements are for the NVG5600 but the 4500 was a 100K mile transmission, this is right out of the mouth of a NVG rep. No matter what the oil temps is kept under, if you use it at its maximum design capactity it should be pretty tired after 100K.



Air running by the trans has a lot to do with the temps it is running. Engine oil temps also greatly influences the trans temps (I have both engine and trans temp gauges). While Chevy was using the 4500, they ran allot hotter. Maybe a 2wd Dodge could get warmer temps. The only thing I would worry about when trans oil temps get over 220 is the GL5 yellow metals issue for those of us running GL5 oil. Maybe that is why we never see temps over 200?



Will these cool the oil? No doudt about it. The extra oil alone with help extend the drain interval. If you never plan on changing your trans oil then this is a good thing. I think improvements in synthetic oil can approach 5 to 10 degree reduction.



My experiences are with just one truck and one transmission. Maybe mine ran cooler then normal.



jjw

ND

 

[Texas Diesel]

I've ordered one side because I need a place to put a 1/2" sender. The extra oil capacity cant hurt, I sure hope it cools the 5600 down some. I wont know till the gauge is installed but this cast iron 5600 seems to run very hot and takes several hours to cool down. Iron does not lose heat as readily as aluminum. I have a PTO filter on the other side so cant install a set. We'll see how it looks and if it adds enough surface area to dissapate heat.

I'm amazed how much the MagHytec cools down the Dana 80 hopefully this will do the same. Stay tuned.

 

[John Berger]

I ordered one side also, as I have a PTO filter on my transmission. I've seen temps as high as 225 in my differential and that was on a hot day towing my TT over flat roads. I ordered it because it seems to be the easiest way to facilitate the installation of a temperature gauge, which is my primary motivation. The additional gear lube can't hurt, either. George(Texas Diesel) and I kind of collaborated on this deal and speaking for myself, I will be glad to let all know what my impressions of the cover are. If it works like the Mag-Hytec, then I'm going to be a happy camper.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Fast 1

Check the transmission life expectancy charts in earlier TDR issues they tell it all. If you really had to pick and choose from the above temps, what should you be concerned about ?

Are the referenced charts for both Auto & Manual transmissions? The temps sure sound like the numbers I've heard for autos.



Brian

 

[SLittle]

I just wanted to bring this thread back to the top and apologize for the confrontational tone in my first post, that was not my intent and the crack about the Mag-Hytek was uncalled for.



I have researched this product further and now think it would be a great addition for people towing heavy loads which is what we all do with our Cummins right .



Anyway, I think this and all products should be judged in the marketplace by how well they perform in real life and not be judged by the opinion of someone shooting there mouth off without any real facts (that would be me ). Haul on!



Scott

 

[Texas Diesel]

First look

Attached is a picture of the thingy. It is HEAVY and well machined, there is a quarter in the photo for reference. Next step is to tap it for my 1/2" sender. Hopefully I'll have it on next week.

 

[Texas Diesel]

John, I think there is a possibility for a "floating ground" and I have a fix for it. The problem is the fastcooler is insulated from the transmission case by a gasket and it is insulated from the PTO cover by a gasket. Therefore, the only ground it will have is through incidental contact with the bolts that run through it. My solution is to blind tap a 8/32 (or whatever) hole through the PTO cover into the fast cooler. Remove the paint on the PTO cover so the new bolt can make good contact. Remove the paint under one or more of the 6 mounting bolts too. This way there is no gasket (or silicone) between the sender and electrical ground. The drilling and tapping might be better done before install, you wouldnt want to drill into the oil side Let me know what you think.

 

[Alan Reagan]

Ray T is right on the cost. Our cost for a casting die can run to 100K on stuff we manufacturer. We machine first, then go to stereo lithography, machine a model for testing then go to die casting. Can't tell if this is extrusion or cast, probably extrusion looking at the interior/exterior. That's a lot cheaper but believe me, they have invested some money. Now, why doesn't it come with a filter?

 

[Ray Torresdal]

sell individually

I wonder why they don't market them individually, as many may want to run the Geno's filter on one side. You would have 1/2 the cooling, I realize, but gain a temp. sensor port. I would think the filter might be as valuable as the cooler???



Ray

 

[John Berger]

George, you got yours already. I'm jealous. Mine will probably come today. That thing looks pretty hefty. I must be having a brain fart, because I'm not following your solution for the potential grounding problem. Let me think about it and see if it becomes clearer.

 

[John Berger]

OK, I think I follow you. Not sure why this would make a difference, as the sender tap is still on the fast cooler anyway. Wouldn't you still have the problem at the transmission side of the fast cooler? What is a blind tap?

 

[johnrv4]

You guys might want to check it out, I think they are offering a 20% discount to TDR members.