First Amsoil oil analysis: TBN question

[TomGolden]

Howdy all,



I switched to Amsoil 15W-40 HDD&M in my engine after 32K miles on Delo 400. Have been doing oil analysis since day 1 with Blackstone labs. Recently they started offering a TBN report as well to their regular oil analysis reports. This being my first oil analysis with Amsoil, and the first ever with a TBN number, I have no frame of reference with which to compare the TBN number to know if it is good, bad, average... ... thus this thread.



What is considered an acceptable TBN number? At what number should an oil change be done (what's the lowest the TBN should safely ever be allowed to go)?



Here's my oil analysis. Again, this was from my first usage of synthetic, and so I purposefully only ran it 5K miles. I plan on going at least 10K on future oil change intervals, with sampling and oil filters to be changed at 5K intervals. I currently use only a single, full flow oil filter (Amsoil SDF80). I don't have any definite plan to go to the dual bypass filter system, but might at some point.



Miles on this oil: 5040

Miles on engine: 37321

Sample date: 3/13/2002

Aluminum 2 PPM

Chromium 1 PPM

Iron 20 PPM

Copper 2 PPM

Lead 2 PPM

Tin 1 PPM

Molybdenum 0 PPM

Nickel 0 PPM

Manganese 1 PPM

Silver 0 PPM

Titanium 0 PPM

Vandaium 0 PPM

Boron 2 PPM

Silicon 4 PPM

Sodium 3 PPM

Calcium 4131 PPM

Magnesium 10 PPM

Phosphorous 1040 PPM

Zinc 1238 PPM

Barium 0 PPM



Sus. Viscosity @ 210* F - 71. 2

Flashpoint - 440* F

Fuel - <0. 5%

Antifreeze - 0. 0%

Water - 0. 0%

Insolubles - 0. 4%



TBN 16. 0



Thanks all,



Tom

 

[JJW_ND]

TBN will not matter!

Unless you extend drains allot longer then 10K Tom you will not need to pay any attention to TBNs. I run to 24K and have never had TBN even drop below 75% of original. As a general rule, TBN would be a concern if it dropped below 50% of original. Both Amsoil oils (15W40 and 5W30) start with 12 TBN. Not sure how yours got to 16.



If you start with 12, one would only be concern if it dropped below 6.



From my oil history in these engines, I would watch what the ViscC100 does. If it ever drops out of weight. And watch the wear metals (iron and cupper, ect). Yours look almost as good as new oil.



The biggest thing is to get several samples, all fromt the same interval with the same setup (filters, oil) and start to develop a trend. That will help you spot changes. You will find values dance around some. Wear metals might even do down with more miles (makeup oil and filteration).



jjw

ND

 

[Rammin On]

TBN - Total Base Number is the reserve alkalinity in lube oil ... basically alkaline components to neutralize acids to reduce corrosive damage. The higher the TBN the more reserve alkalinity or acid neutralizing capacity. You are safe in the US using an oil with a TBN value of 10 or better. We are now in the reduced sulfur fuel age ... the old standard for the US was 0. 5% or less. I can't remeber what the new standard is ... slips my mind ...



Keep in mind that oils with larger concentrations of acid neutralizing compounds also have higher ash content. This will increase deposits on valve heads turbo nozzles.



JJW is right ... with a TBN of 12 ... you should be good til you hit the 50% mark ... .

 

[Don M]

The metals are low. They are good, but I hope it would at 5k.



TBN is the oils ability to deal with acids from combustion by products and water or condensation. TBN is important. Water will drop it very fast. Leaky gaskets that allow coolant into the crankcase will wipe out the TBN fast.

Im surprised the calcium is soo high in this product. 15/40 usually has about half that and more magnesium. Both are additives.

The calcium is usually higher in the 5/30 amsoil and the magnesium is usually higher in both products.

The product seems to change magnesium and calcium concentrations a lot.

Good thing is. . your wear metals are low and the TBN is high.

I would watch the viscosity close after about 10k.



Don~

 

[Dan Watson]

Tom



There are a couple of ways to measure TBN and it might be good to know the ASTM testing method Blackstone uses. In general, it is not possible to get a TBN of 16 from any engine oil on the market. The additives do some double duty here and calcium is the biggest contributor to TBN in Amsoil. With modern additives for antiwear and detergency the TBN is a good indicator of the overall additive package in the oil. Some large fleets only test for TBN and viscosity.



The reason you really can't get TBN much greater than 12 is the diminishing returns phenomenon. You just don't get any real increase after you get to a certain concentration. Now some test methods might not recognize this and that's why I ask what the ASTM test number used by Blackstone is.



Your oil sample looks great and you obviously have nothing to worry about. The TBN is really probably about 12 and someone at Blackstone made a mistake.



Dan Watson

AdvancedLubeTech

TDR Advertiser

 

[TomGolden]

Thanks Dan. I'll check the next sample analysis I get from Blackstone, and if it is still way out of reality, I will likely switch to Oil Analysers.



Thanks again,

Tom

 

[HC]

Tom,

If you have time, please post your last analysis with Delo, too. I like syn for protection against monkeys shutting off before turbo cooldown and several other reasons, but I think Delo is good stuff too and I'd like to see the numbers. If you made me guess, I'd think the Amsoil numbers might (might) look a bit better, if only because at 32k I think your engine could still be breaking in a little bit. Or maybe that would be my second guess. My first guess would be the numbers are very similar, if the mileage is similar. Any differences could be due to colder weather, number of starts, etc - I'll bet they are really pretty close.

 

[TomGolden]

here ya go HC

HC, here are my results from Blackstone Labs with Delo 400 15W-40. The columns probably won't line up too good, so I apologize if it isn't too easy to read. All these were with my K&N air filter, and a single full flow Fleetguard oil filter.



Sample date: ... . 1/12/02 . . 10/24/01. . 8/25/01. . 6/5/01... . 4/25/01

Miles on oil: ... ... . 5262... ... . 4650... ... ... 4250... ... 4100... ... . 3873

Miles on engine:. 32281..... 27019... ... . 22370... . 18130..... 14020

Aluminum: ... ... ... . 2... ... ... ... . 1... ... ... ... ... 2... ... ... ... 1... ... ... ... . 2

Chromium: ... ... ... 1... ... ... ... . 1... ... ... ... ... 1... ... ... ... . 1... ... ... ... . 1

Iron: ... ... ... ... ... . 17... ... ... ... 13... ... ... ... . 15... ... ... . 15... ... ..... 16

Copper: ... ... ... ... . 2... ... ... ..... 2... ... ... ... ... 2... ... ... ... 2... ... ... ... . 6

Lead: ... ... ... ... ... . 2... ... ... ... . 2... ... ... ... ... 1... ... ... ... . 2... ... ... ... . 1

Tin: ... ... ... ... ... ... 0... ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ... ... 0... ... ... ... 0... ... ... ..... 0

Molybdenum: ..... 0... ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ... . 0... ... ... ..... 0

Nickel: ... ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ... ... 0... ... ... ... . 0... ... ... ..... 0

Manganese: ... ... 1... ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ... ... 0... ... ... ... . 0... ... ... ... . 1

Silver: ... ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ... . 0... ... ... ... ... . 0... ... ... ... 0... ... ... ..... 0

Titanium: ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ... ... 0... ... ... ... . 0... ... ... ... . 0

Vanadium: ... ... ... 0... ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ... ... 0... ... ... ... . 0... ... ... ... . 0

Boron: ... ... ... ..... 2... ... ... ..... 0... ... ... ... ... . 0... ... ... ... 1... ... ... ..... 2

Silicon: ... ... ... ... . 5... ... ... ... ... 5... ... ... ... ... 7... ... ... ... . 8... ... ... ... . 10

Sodium: ... ... ... ... 2... ... ... ..... 2... ... ... ... ... 3... ... ... ... . 2... ... ... ... . 3

Calcium: ... ... ..... 3387... ... ... 2523... ... ... 2992... ... 3399... ..... 3218

Magnesium: ... ... . 8... ... ... ... ... 7... ... ... ... ... 8... ... ... ... . 9... ... ... ... . 10

Phosphorous: ... . 1234... ... ... 970... ... ..... 1114... ... . 1146... ... . 1216

Zinc: ... ... ... ... ... 1409... ... ... 1112... ... ... . 1267... ... . 1367... ... . 1371

Barium: ... ... ... ... 1... ... ... ... ... . 1... ... ... ... ... . 0... ... ... ... . 0... ... ... ... . 0



I have the results back to the first oil change, but I figured this would fit readability wise in the post window. And it gives you a decent history of my oil analyses. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask, email me or PM me.



Tom

 

[Don M]

Tom,



The numbers you just posted are great. This is more proof that the changing of oil on a regular basis and using good quality lubricants is the best thing you can do for your engine. Its hard to argue with Cummins and use of 15/40 oil with numbers like that.



Don~

 

[HC]

Yes, great numbers, both Delo and A***. I find it interesting that Tom's engine "trended" differently than mine; Tom's Fe was already stable by ~20k. When I was at 20k each new analysis brought lower Fe counts. Tom must have done a better job of getting his engine broken in during that first 10k miles of driving.



As to what's "best", ahhhh, that depends on so many "personal preference" factors, including whether or not your fueling levels have been modified to the point that soot loading has become more of an issue. For those willing to play around with oil analysis and study the data from their own engines, we can keep wear rates in the same game with anybody while still enjoying the other benefits that have been discussed previously at length. Some enjoy time spent changing the oil, some don't, and I can respect either point of view. I guess I'm almost in-between - I enjoy changing the oil, but I've got some other hobbies I enjoy even more, and there's only so many hours in a day!

 

[TomGolden]

Bummer! I tried to edit the previous post, but there is now a time limit on doing that. So... I'll add a new reply.



Just for additional information to go along with my number posted above, here is my BOMB history:



Absolutely bone stock (except for EGT/boost gauges) until ~6K miles.



~6K miles: added K&N air filter



12,400 miles: 4" Jardine exhaust, DD Stage 3 injectors, DD True Torque Power Module, Psychotty air filter shroud, -AN6 SS fuel line upgrade from end of existing hard lines up to VP44



~18K miles: South Bend Con 01 FE clutch



~20K miles: upgraded to (stock) HX40 turbo



~26K miles: replaced TTPM with hot Edge Comp box



Tom