first gen 2wd front air ride anyone?

[mysteryman]

A concern I have been having for a while is the lower control arms bending on the 2wd trucks... I have been talking to a vendor that will produce lower control arms for our trucks and an air bag system as well if we want it.....



They are telling me that they want a min. order for 25 units to do the project. .

I am still waiting on a quote... I am mainly interested in having tougher lower control arms. But air ride would be a lot nicer to the chassis and my rearend !

It would also be nice to be able to adjust the ride height... .



The cost would be higher for air ride than just spring arms... . I'm not sure where I will go with this project . If I get enough folks to join in I will do it... Other wise I will most likly not do it... ... give me your thoughts

 

[Headshot zod]

I think, I might be interested (no, I couldn't be more vague) I guess what will it really do for me. A smoother ride would be nice. Right I'm using about 500 lbs of veggie oil to accomplish that. How hard to install? I guess I'll wait for a price and if I have anymore questions I'll write back. What sort of examples are out there. Do they make a one for a 2nd gen that I could read up on?

 

[mysteryman]

lower control arm problems

The main concern is really the fact that the stock lower control arms bend at the spring pocket if you hit a curb or bottom out the suspension hard on a pot hole.

A dead give away is when you notice that you have too much positive camber and find that you can not adjust it out with the cams enough to get it in spec.



Effectively what happens is the center line distance between the ball joint and the inner bushing decreases. . thus changing your spindles axis of inclination... If this axis is not the same on both sides it will make the truck pull to one side, wander , not return to center and just give you an overall unstable feeling truck that no front end shop will be able to solve.



We knew about the lower control arm problems on the diesel trucks at Chrysler... We did several design changes and or updates from 88 to 93... .

I never felt that we totally solved the problem. .



Another problem was that the trucks up threw the rust belt would get salt water between the ball joint and the arm and rust... . The rust would swell the hole that the ball joint pressed into as well as rot the metal away... . Then when you went to replace the lower ball joint what you would find was that the old joint nearly took an act of god to get out but when you put in the new joint it would just fall back out on the floor... . The after market solved this problem to some degree by making over sized OD ball joints... But what about the next set you need to put in... . And NO YOU NEVER WELD BALL JOINTS IN!



Another problem was the springs in the front tend to sag with time. . They often do not sag evenly. . This can cause troubles when one tries to aline the front end and keep the truck tracking straight... .



I once took the K frame and front suspension out of a 65 Chry. Imperial and installed it into a 2wd 1979 Ramcharger of mine... I felt that the R/C would benefit from the torsion bar suspension and that I would be able to get a better front end alignment... . It worked great and rode and handled much better... ... This would not work well in one of our diesel trucks due to the excessive weight of the engine... . The ball joints,bushing, ect would wear out REAL fast !



The best solution to the whole lower control arm problem would be to fabricate extra heavy arms and use an air spring with an automatic load leveling valve to control the ride height... ... .



We were considering it at Chry. way back then but engineering got shot down due to cost. . By that time the first gen truck design was on its way out anyway... .



As for installation... . I could easily change them in an hour and a half. . The air ride may take a little longer due to the air lines and shock relocation but it should not be any real big deal at all.



There are a few companies out their that I saw at the SEMA show that were making them for the second/third gen trucks. . They looked pretty good. . But the suspension those trucks use is totally different than our trucks... .



I really think that this is a project that is worth doing. It would save a lot problems in the years to come...



I could fabricate a set or two in my shop for my own trucks. . It would take a lot of hours to do. . I would just rather design the system and pay some one else produce the parts. . But the vendors want minimum orders to do a project.



Dodge is a real bad word in the aftermarket. . Dodge parts in years past were real slow movers and real small production numbers... No one wants to make old Dodge parts. . Manufacturers are in it for the money not the glory. .



It will be interesting to see how many pay attention to this post.....

I think, I might be interested (no, I couldn't be more vague) I guess what will it really do for me. A smoother ride would be nice. Right I'm using about 500 lbs of veggie oil to accomplish that. How hard to install? I guess I'll wait for a price and if I have anymore questions I'll write back. What sort of examples are out there. Do they make a one for a 2nd gen that I could read up on?

 

[pepecat]

I am interested in the idea, and would be interested in getting on board once all the engineering is through. What would be the esimated cost would you say from start to finish? I'm also interested in your super hinge,

however I have a question about the upper control arms, mine look to be very corroded and brittle, even breaking off at the edges of the cast. what would you think about the feasability of reengineering the whole front susp setup w/ airbags? too much work?

 

[Headshot zod]

oh... sign me up for the super hinge too...



Since I want to do go land speed racing next season, what do you think of the airbags and my truck going 140mph or so?

 

[sdstriper]

I have an interest also, but would like to be completely honest about a cost concern. If it is significantly more expensive than a spring R&R/front end rebuild I would not go that route for this truck, too many miles and other issues needing attention. If and when I get a 1st generation "Cream Puff" I would do it regardless of cost.

 

[rlyons]

I may be interested but there again it would depend on the cost.

 

[mysteryman]

upper & lower control arm questions

You bring up a good point. . The uppers were also a problem up north due to rust ! I have seen them break in half many times... .



My main concern however is correcting problems that reoccur that we will be running out of parts to fix real soon... . The uppers there are plenty of still around..... They are really no more than gas truck arms with a few extra struts spot welded on them to keep them from bending..... We can make them up easy from used gas arms that come from the south... .



The lowers bend all the time!! most every truck has bent arms on it ...

some worse than others... . Most of you do not know they are bent. . there is a lot of room to adjust the front end to hide it. But the trucks handling suffers for it and so do the tires!!



I would love to design a whole new system. . but the cost would be brutal !

Most guys that have old trucks do not have them because they love these old trucks like I do... They have them because they are either cheap or or poor . Most will not spend very much to keep them running. If they had the money the would just buy a newer one... .

I want my old trucks no matter what the cost to fix them... The 91,92,93 Cummins 5 spd trucks were the best of all the Cummins trucks ever built to date. . 94 up were really just over sized cars. . Not trucks at all!



I had a 94 back in 94 when they came out... . My 72 W300 power wagon with tow rig had to tow my 94 back to the dealer 3 times for warrantee work :{

So much for new being "better" LOL



My main concern now is building the parts that we are going to run out of while I am still able to do the projects... I look good for my age but I am getting old... My next stroke might be my last. and I want to solve all the problems that I know need to be fixed once and for all while I still can...



I know once these control arms are built that they will never be a problem again..... We engineers do know how to design things to never wear out. But that costs money to do and the bean counters do not want to give us the money to do it. Everyone today wants cheap... . not good. . But good is not cheap and cheap is not good...



I have the ability and the experience to make anything for these truck you all can dream up... But who is going to pay for it???? The only way we can make things cheap is to build things in very large numbers... . The demand is not there... . Or perhaps a better way to say it is dedication to these trucks is not there... . I know that every truck out there needs lower hinges. But no one from tdr has gotten any from me. All my personal friends have them on their trucks... I have sold them to countless fleets for years... . But no general consumers... . Now why is that????? I guess most do not care that their doors don't close properly or that they are ruining the latches that are being discontinued any day now... Perhaps consumers just like replacing door hinges every year... ????



In any event... If I get 25 guys to chip in on this project I will make it happen. If not I guess I will make a few myself in my shop for my trucks and call it done... .



I will know more next week after the vendor reviews my drawings and gives me a quote.....

I don't want to spend anymore on this project than I have to so the uppers are not a high priority right now. But if the demand is there or if the money is there I will gladly do them as well... .



I will be glad when I can have a decent pair of lowers! I have a whole; barrel of bent one now and 4 trucks that don't track like they should

I am interested in the idea, and would be interested in getting on board once all the engineering is through. What would be the esimated cost would you say from start to finish? I'm also interested in your super hinge,

however I have a question about the upper control arms, mine look to be very corroded and brittle, even breaking off at the edges of the cast. what would you think about the feasability of reengineering the whole front susp setup w/ airbags? too much work?

 

[mysteryman]

140mph ??????? you are nuts ! make sure you have your will made out before you head out!

oh... sign me up for the super hinge too...



Since I want to do go land speed racing next season, what do you think of the airbags and my truck going 140mph or so?

 

[PGunther]

I would definately be interested!

 

[1stgen4evr]

front bags

A little fuel for the fire here. I have had air bags on the REAR of my twd truck for near the life of it and I can say that it improves the ride VERY much, after I figured out how much air pressure to run in them (pumped tight). ALSO, they are mounted right over the axle. I noticed an ad for bags and mounts that are installed just like mine. Something around two hundred dollars. Worth every penny to improve the ride. I have no doubt that bags on the front would make an entirely different ride for our trucks. I have noticed that small bumps cause near zero bounce with the bags and really bad road (I-10 in Lousianna) is tamed to the point of being able to run the speed limit without hammering my rear end off. No design of steel spring (coil, leaf, or torsion bar) will deliver that ride comfort.



Anything in the realm of affordable even at a fairly steep number would definitely be worth the $$$ to improve the ride and I suspect add to the life of the truck by eliminating the hammering from the spring suspension. Air bags allow you to run the truck at the top of the suspension for full reaction/absorbtion to bumps.



Would it be possible to have a kit for southern trucks which would only be reinforcement for the existing control arm? Do we need a completely new arm that is fitted for the air bag? Where will the shock locate after adding the bag to the system? Will the bag you use be something really substantial that we can expect to run a half million miles?



I will be checking this post to see what you find in the way of cost as I am very interested in the project. I would add also that I doubt there are any members or owners that are cheaper than I but my opinion is that a front air bag project is worth the money.



1stgen4evr

James

 

[Headshot zod]

I did alot of reading so I am definitely onboard, and yes... I'm nuts, but don't let that get around

 

[HFletcher]

I am interested but it depends on the cost. Waiting to find that out.

 

[mysteryman]

Air Ride questions answered

James makes some good points and asks some good questions that I will try to answer . .



Q) Would it be possible to have a kit for southern trucks which would only be reinforcement for the existing control arm?



A) I have considered a reinforcement kit. We concluded at chry. that it was not cost effective... We did make changes to the 92, 93 arms to stiffen them up. But the problem did not go away... . still they bent out in the field in large #'s.



Q) Do we need a completely new arm that is fitted for the air bag?



A) I could easily put bags on a stock arm. It would be cheap to do. .

But the main point of the project it to solve the weak cont. arm problem.

The only reason I am considering doing this project is because the stock lower control arms are JUNK. They will not last the test of time in the real world with a Cummins engine sitting on top of them. .



Q) Where will the shock locate after adding the bag to the system?



A) That remains to be seen. I am considering and would prefer to run it up threw the center of the bag. Cost will determine which way I decide to go.

Adding air ride to the control arm is # 2 priority . The first is correcting the arm. If the cost for adding air ride is too high I will just make new spring arms.



Q) Will the bag you use be something really substantial that we can expect to run a half million miles?



A) Yes ... But air bags cannot soaked in engine oil or brake fluid daily and then be expected to last forever...



I would also like to mention a few things about the REAR air bag kits that are currently available for our trucks... ... .



The kits are ok for the most part . The use an angle bracket to support the air bag that is bolted to the SIDE of the frame just over the rear axle... .

The kits are designed to work WITH the leaf spring... . As the weight of the truck and cargo comes down on the bags it tries to twist the frame rails. . I have seen several of these trucks crack the frames where the angle brackets bolt to the sides of the rails... Those that I have seen this happen to were very high mileage trucks that were regularly overloaded.....

The frames cracked for one simple reason... There was no cross member tying

the rails together between the angle brackets .....

Any of you that are consider putting on one of these rear kits need to consider making a cross member... . If you do you can then remove half of the leaves from your springs. The trucks ride real nice then. . I built one for a friend of mine some 10 years back... . He had major back injuries from WW II. and could not handle the pounding of a dually. His truck was a 92 . He and his wife used it to pull an air stream trailer for many years. . He passed away about 3 years . . The truck was still riding fine the last time I saw it... . His daughter on the west coast took the truck after his passing... .



Stay tuned for more on the air ride project ... ... ...

A little fuel for the fire here. I have had air bags on the REAR of my twd truck for near the life of it and I can say that it improves the ride VERY much, after I figured out how much air pressure to run in them (pumped tight). ALSO, they are mounted right over the axle. I noticed an ad for bags and mounts that are installed just like mine. Something around two hundred dollars. Worth every penny to improve the ride. I have no doubt that bags on the front would make an entirely different ride for our trucks. I have noticed that small bumps cause near zero bounce with the bags and really bad road (I-10 in Lousianna) is tamed to the point of being able to run the speed limit without hammering my rear end off. No design of steel spring (coil, leaf, or torsion bar) will deliver that ride comfort.



Anything in the realm of affordable even at a fairly steep number would definitely be worth the $$$ to improve the ride and I suspect add to the life of the truck by eliminating the hammering from the spring suspension. Air bags allow you to run the truck at the top of the suspension for full reaction/absorbtion to bumps.



Would it be possible to have a kit for southern trucks which would only be reinforcement for the existing control arm? Do we need a completely new arm that is fitted for the air bag? Where will the shock locate after adding the bag to the system? Will the bag you use be something really substantial that we can expect to run a half million miles?



I will be checking this post to see what you find in the way of cost as I am very interested in the project. I would add also that I doubt there are any members or owners that are cheaper than I but my opinion is that a front air bag project is worth the money.



1stgen4evr

James

 

[1stgen4evr]

Mystery man states and I agree: "Any of you that are consider putting on one of these rear kits need to consider making a cross member... . If you do you can then remove half of the leaves from your springs. "



On my truck what I did was incorporated the bag mount with the cross channel that was added to mount the hitch ball in the bed of the truck so that there is no twist on the frame. I am sure that there is a need for a cross member of some sort. The mount we used has proven to be adequate. I did not remove half of the springs but only one from each side. I also agree that it would be fine to remove more. In fact, if the rear of the spring set was disconnected, I am sure that the air bag would tote the load. If you went to the trouble to make an arm to provide the air bag rest and link for the axle, the springs could be deleted. International has a rear suspension that is strickly air bag. It is very adequate.



I sincerely hope the air bag is a suscessful project. I am CERTAIN that the ride would be worth the money. I mentioned long miles for the air bag. Well, at one hundred dollars per side for the bags I use on the rear, even a couple of hundred thousand miles would be worth the money for the ride.



James

 

[mysteryman]

air ride update

I am still working on this project... The vendor is draging his rear end. I will crack the whip on him in the months to come... .



I have also been kind of busy the past month with my dog Lucky. He is a 16 year old German Shepherd... Lucky has cancer as of last month... He will be gone soon. . He is the only family that I have left. I have been trying to spend as much time with him as I can and make him as comfortable as possible in his last days... He has been a good friend and I will miss him...

In his life time he has gotten to see the entire USA and parts of Mexico and Canada from the back of a first gen Dodge truck... He has been in many of the Chrysler OEM vendors factories and warehouses... He has been with me for every project I have worked on in the past 16 years...

If he were only a Dodge truck I could save him... . But I can't fix what he has and neither can the vet... .



After he is gone I will have more time to work on this again

The main concern is really the fact that the stock lower control arms bend at the spring pocket if you hit a curb or bottom out the suspension hard on a pot hole.

A dead give away is when you notice that you have too much positive camber and find that you can not adjust it out with the cams enough to get it in spec.



Effectively what happens is the center line distance between the ball joint and the inner bushing decreases. . thus changing your spindles axis of inclination... If this axis is not the same on both sides it will make the truck pull to one side, wander , not return to center and just give you an overall unstable feeling truck that no front end shop will be able to solve.



We knew about the lower control arm problems on the diesel trucks at Chrysler... We did several design changes and or updates from 88 to 93... .

I never felt that we totally solved the problem. .



Another problem was that the trucks up threw the rust belt would get salt water between the ball joint and the arm and rust... . The rust would swell the hole that the ball joint pressed into as well as rot the metal away... . Then when you went to replace the lower ball joint what you would find was that the old joint nearly took an act of god to get out but when you put in the new joint it would just fall back out on the floor... . The after market solved this problem to some degree by making over sized OD ball joints... But what about the next set you need to put in... . And NO YOU NEVER WELD BALL JOINTS IN!



Another problem was the springs in the front tend to sag with time. . They often do not sag evenly. . This can cause troubles when one tries to aline the front end and keep the truck tracking straight... .



I once took the K frame and front suspension out of a 65 Chry. Imperial and installed it into a 2wd 1979 Ramcharger of mine... I felt that the R/C would benefit from the torsion bar suspension and that I would be able to get a better front end alignment... . It worked great and rode and handled much better... ... This would not work well in one of our diesel trucks due to the excessive weight of the engine... . The ball joints,bushing, ect would wear out REAL fast !



The best solution to the whole lower control arm problem would be to fabricate extra heavy arms and use an air spring with an automatic load leveling valve to control the ride height... ... .



We were considering it at Chry. way back then but engineering got shot down due to cost. . By that time the first gen truck design was on its way out anyway... .



As for installation... . I could easily change them in an hour and a half. . The air ride may take a little longer due to the air lines and shock relocation but it should not be any real big deal at all.



There are a few companies out their that I saw at the SEMA show that were making them for the second/third gen trucks. . They looked pretty good. . But the suspension those trucks use is totally different than our trucks... .



I really think that this is a project that is worth doing. It would save a lot problems in the years to come...



I could fabricate a set or two in my shop for my own trucks. . It would take a lot of hours to do. . I would just rather design the system and pay some one else produce the parts. . But the vendors want minimum orders to do a project.



Dodge is a real bad word in the aftermarket. . Dodge parts in years past were real slow movers and real small production numbers... No one wants to make old Dodge parts. . Manufacturers are in it for the money not the glory. .



It will be interesting to see how many pay attention to this post.....

 

[Mcarcerano]

sounds good I would also be interested in this kit.

 

[sdstriper]

Sorry to hear about your friend Terry, my thoughts are with you and Lucky today. I'll watch for progress on the front end parts. Good luck to you and yours.

 

[pepecat]

Terry,

Sorry to hear about lucky's cancer... Thanks again for all the effort with the control arms, I for one would commit with $$ to see the project thru as I'm sure others would as well.

Nick

 

[rlyons]

I'm sorry to hear about Lucky. I have always had german Shepards and know how attached you can get to them, they are almost human at times. I lost one of mine a few years back to cancer and it is a hard thing to go through. I have one now that is pretty bad shape also but I try to make her comfortable as much as I can. I will be down to one when she goes and I believe it will be the last, getting too old to keep losing them. I too will be waiting for the outcome of the project. Best of luck to you and lucky.