First timer, 2004 fuel & charging issues

[JHabrock]

2004 24V CTD, 6speed manual, crew cab, longbed.

purchased for well under MSRP.

160,000 miles on the clock.

Was previously a fleet truck.

This is my first diesel.



Sorry for the long story but I am not sure what is pertinant or not at this point so I will give the entire story. I have been reading the site and will catch up eventually but would like some pointers for now on how to get it running again in the meantime.



When I first purchased the truck I drove it every day for the first three weeks. Had zero problems with it. I let it sit to give my wallet a break (back to my daily driver) and soon noticed a problem.



At first it would take six to seven days to draw down and it would still have enough juice to start the engine even though all interior lights were dim. That progressed into a complete draw down in three to four days to a point where odometer wouldn't even display. I would give it a jump and let it run for awhile to charge up the batteries. Currently truck will draw completely dead in under two days.



During all this, I had a rear view camera professionally installed with a DVD head unit. I installed a trailer brake controller using a plug-and-play harness. Among other potential electrical problems are the middle running light on the roof has an intermittant ground problem and the drivers side rear door automatic lock does not work.



I replaced both batteries thinking they were the culprit. No change in draw down time.



At this point I decided to go ahead and drive the truck (4. 5 miles one way to work plus an extended warmup time for charging) every other day in an effort to keep the new batteries fully charged.



Then all the sudden (a couple of weeks ago) the volt gauge would show 14V after startup and then drop to 0V and a dummy light after a couple of minutes running. At this point I was pretty sure it was the alternator so I replaced it in the parking lot at my work and drove it home. Couple days go by and I drive it to Cheyenne (50 miles one way) everything is running fine. In Cheyenne, I notice that it takes a few more cranks of the starter than normal to get it to turn over. Around 10 miles from home I notice that the truck will not accelerate above 1500 RPM no matter what gear I am in.

I would call it "falling on its face" when more accelerator is given. I limp it home and park it in the driveway in anticipation of replacing some fuel delivery parts.



On the advice of another member here (Shane Mills), I started the replacements with the fuel filter... which definately needed it as it had a sooty/oily substance on the outside. I wasn't immediatly aware of the need to bleed the air from the fuel lines as I figured the injectors would purge the lines.



I replaced the in-tank pump with one I got from Autozone (20% off) and I still couldn't get it started. I tried cracking three of the high pressure lines at the head and cranking it over... barely got a trickle of fuel. I tightened them back up and checked the fuel filter canister to find the fuel level had dropped quite a bit. I topped it off and cranked it with the fuel filter off and it started only to draw the fuel level down, starve the injection pump and shut the engine off without any stumble. Thinking that the fuse may have been blown to the tank pump, I checked all the fuses under the hood to find they were all fine. I did not check any of the relays.



During this re-starting fiasco, I noticed that I have a repeated clicking sound that I cannot pinpoint under the hood. It sounds like a relay clicking but I can't pinpoint it. It only turns on with the key on, and it stops on it's own around two or three minutes after it starts (or with the key turned to the off position).



At that point I realized that I have been chasing the problems that I am used to with a gas engine and not fixing the problem. I buttoned everything back up, put the trickle charger on the batteries, shut the hood and joined this site.



At this point my inclination is that the in-tank pump is still bad or I blew a fuse that isn't under the hood that isn't turning the in-tank pump on with the key on.



After I joined this site I read through a couple of threads and learned how to check codes... here are the codes I got:



2502 2503 2509



I found the code translations before and can't find them now. I never did get the codes cleared after I replaced the alternator (didn't know the codes were there until a few minutes ago) and as I recall, the first two are related to charging. 2509 has to do with signal to something?



I don't have a fuel pressure gauge as of right now but will get one in the coming days as this seems to be a re-occuring theme in all the treads I have read. I don't feel I need it right now because I have NO pressure from the tank pump and I know it.



So at this point... is there a fuse panel that I don't know about?

What supplies power to the in-tank fuel pump? Ignition switch? ECM? Relay?

How do you test to see if a relay is sticking? Relay or socket?

Anything else I should test?

Are the charging issues related to the fuel issues?

Any suggestions?



Thanks in advance.

 

[jelag]

1 - your truck didn't come with an in tank pump, it has been upgraded to that pump... .

2 - when the key is turned on but the truck doesn't crank, the pump is turned on for 20 seconds to charge the line and system. . if you remove the filter housing you should see the filter housing fill with fuel during this 20 second cycle. . it might take more than one cycle to fill the filter... once its full put the lid back on... 2 - 3 more of these cycles should push the air back to the tank and it should start...

3 - you describe a loose or bad ground... at the start of this section is a list of what the codes are... I've never followed the codes but keep several of these trucks running...

4 - at this point I don't know why you replaced the alternator... .

5 - lets assume that you put a trickle charge that has 2 amps of output... . both batteries are about 100 amp hour batteries so with a 2 amp trickle charger it would take at least 50 hours per battery to bring both back up... with a 10 amp charger your looking at least 20 hours on charge... . its all based on ohm's law...

6 - if you put a volt meter or test light at the wiring harness at the tank you can test for 12V when the key is turned on but not cranking for the first 20 seconds after the key is turned on... .

7 - since your truck has had the old lift pump (mounted on the filter) removed and the factory kit installed there is a electrical connector at the fuel pump that runs 2 wires from where the old lift pump was installed down to the tank. . it would be easy at this location to disconnect this connection and test at this point... I've not personally seen a truck with a bad fuse or relay...

You've got too many other things going on for me to give you more information with out answers to some of my thoughts above... . it could be that you've just got the batteries run down and have never gotten them fully charged after you changed the fuel filter and never cleared the air from the system when trying to start the truck...

8 - its easy to check for current draw... remove the ground from 1 battery, and than place a amp meter in the 12+ lead on the second battery... . if the amp meter reads more than 1/2 amp you have a draw that will drain the batteries in a few days... . if you do have a draw, (with the key off, and all doors closed) its a simple thing to pull one fuse at a time, until the amp meter drops to zero... you than chase that circuit to find the draw and repair it... .

9 - since you bought this truck used, I'd run a carfax on it right away to see if its been totaled or been in some extreme accident that might be recorded that would lead you to some ideas of what is wrong.....

10 - by jumping around and replacing parts without proper diagnosis you might have created 1 or 2 other issues by your work that might not have been a problem before... and you really need someone with good diagnosis abilities who can start with the basic's and solve one problem at a time...

Hope this is of some help... . you don't say where your from... you need to revise your signature so that maybe someone close will come forward and offer some close to home help... .

 

[JHabrock]

1 - your truck didn't come with an in tank pump, it has been upgraded to that pump... .

That is definately news to me! Why would Autozone call up the exact replacement when I gave them the truck info if the pump was aftermarket? I am not saying you are incorrect, I just don't understand why you would upgrade to an alternate? factory setup? Or am I not understanding the big picture of your answer?

2 - when the key is turned on but the truck doesn't crank, the pump is turned on for 20 seconds to charge the line and system. . if you remove the filter housing you should see the filter housing fill with fuel during this 20 second cycle. . it might take more than one cycle to fill the filter... once its full put the lid back on... 2 - 3 more of these cycles should push the air back to the tank and it should start...

I know this does not happen. I had an observer (big rig diesel mechanic)watch the fuel level in the filter canister while I not only cycled the key on and off but also started the truck. I will try again tomorrow just to be sure.

3 - you describe a loose or bad ground... at the start of this section is a list of what the codes are... I've never followed the codes but keep several of these trucks running...

I will check grounds tomorrow.

4 - at this point I don't know why you replaced the alternator... .

I replaced the alternator because the volt gauge kept dropping to zero while the truck was running. This happened after a full charge of the batteries. I still have the first alternator and will get it checked tomorrow just to see.

5 - lets assume that you put a trickle charge that has 2 amps of output... . both batteries are about 100 amp hour batteries so with a 2 amp trickle charger it would take at least 50 hours per battery to bring both back up... with a 10 amp charger your looking at least 20 hours on charge... . its all based on ohm's law...

I understand ohms law. The trickle charge has been on the truck for two full days and it reads 25%. Which, given my current draw puts it right in the ballpark of where it should be IMHO.

6 - if you put a volt meter or test light at the wiring harness at the tank you can test for 12V when the key is turned on but not cranking for the first 20 seconds after the key is turned on... .

I will try this tomorrow.

7 - since your truck has had the old lift pump (mounted on the filter) removed and the factory kit installed there is a electrical connector at the fuel pump that runs 2 wires from where the old lift pump was installed down to the tank. . it would be easy at this location to disconnect this connection and test at this point... I've not personally seen a truck with a bad fuse or relay...

I will see if I can find these wires tomorrow. Come to think of it, the wiring harness that was hooked to the in-tank pump didn't look right to me at first... Is there such a thing as too much electrical tape to be factory?

You've got too many other things going on for me to give you more information with out answers to some of my thoughts above... . it could be that you've just got the batteries run down and have never gotten them fully charged after you changed the fuel filter and never cleared the air from the system when trying to start the truck...

Is there a published procedure somewhere that I can reference for purging the air from the system? Anyone have any procedures that work every time? My ONLY experience purging a diesel fuel system was on a front end loader that had a two foot handle on an air pump that took around 2000 pumps to re-prime the fuel line. All I remember is that I stopped pumping when I couldn't hold my arms up anymore.

8 - its easy to check for current draw... remove the ground from 1 battery, and than place a amp meter in the 12+ lead on the second battery... . if the amp meter reads more than 1/2 amp you have a draw that will drain the batteries in a few days... . if you do have a draw, (with the key off, and all doors closed) its a simple thing to pull one fuse at a time, until the amp meter drops to zero... you than chase that circuit to find the draw and repair it... .

I will fully charge the batteries and then check the fuses again. The first time I checked them I didn't get any readings but it very well could have been because the batteries weren't at full charge.

9 - since you bought this truck used, I'd run a carfax on it right away to see if its been totaled or been in some extreme accident that might be recorded that would lead you to some ideas of what is wrong.....

I don't see how this relates but I will check it anyways.

10 - by jumping around and replacing parts without proper diagnosis you might have created 1 or 2 other issues by your work that might not have been a problem before... and you really need someone with good diagnosis abilities who can start with the basic's and solve one problem at a time...

That is very possible. That is why I am here.

Hope this is of some help... . you don't say where your from... you need to revise your signature so that maybe someone close will come forward and offer some close to home help... .

I am in Fort Collins, CO. I will update my sig tomorrow. Thanks for the initial help.

 

[jelag]

Trucks built before 05 had a fuel pump called a lift pump supplied by cummins that was mounted to the fuel filter assemble... there were a lot of failures of the lift pump and it was decided that it was lifting and pulling the fuel farther than that pump was designed to work...

With lots of warranty failures Chrysler moved to an in tank pump in 05 and started to upgrade under warranty those that failed in the early trucks with and in tank pump... I've only read of 1 in tank pump failure, to date... .

The base procedure to clear the air, is to first cycle the key from off to run without cranking the motor... . 3-5 times to fill the filter assembly than tighten the lid... 3-5 more times will usually purge the fuel from the rest of the lines... .

I've personally installed 3 of the kits to convert from the engine lift pump to the tank kit... and understand this process, I have an extra factory pump if someone is interested... The connector to this pump is 4 wires as I remember and 2 are for the gauge and the other two power the pump...

I personally won't have time to check the pump for which 2 power the pump, if I knew that off hand I'd have you power the pump to test it... .

I assume you started with one problem and thinking you had several changed parts and might have created more issues. .

The fuses won't care if the batteries are fully charged or not... they will still test the same... they are either good or bad. . they can be checked with a test light from the top or removed with an ohm meter...

I'd put the charger on the batteries and than while charging test the grounds, check the fuses and just for the fun of it, move some of the relays... I'd exchange the fuel pump relay with the head light relay... . etc... to see if the problem moves. .

If with the charger on and say the voltage is 14. 7-15. 5 volts you should be able to cycle the key... remember that each time you cycle the key the grid heater turns on (high current draw) but the battery voltage should hold at least 9. 6 V...

I could write another page or two... get a couple of things checked and I'll check back later... the pdf file for the manual is to large to send you over the internet... go to list of guys on this sight and see if one of them has the CD manual in your area. .

 

[JHabrock]

That explanation for the fuel pump makes much more sense.



I found my fuel delivery problem. Apparently when they did the in-tank upgrade, they wired in a relay that hung on the firewall to power it. The main power lead to the relay was run off a ring connector to the drivers side battery. The ring had separated from the lead and that is why the in tank pump wasn't getting any power. I put another ring on the lead and connected it to the post... then I cycled the key with the fuel filter cap off and saw the level rise. I put the filter back on and started it up. Drove it around the block a couple of times and the fall-on-the-face at 1500 rpm is gone.



I ran out of time to start checking for the short.



I did get the carfax for the truck and there were the basic oil changes and scheduled services on there. Nothing about any wrecks or anything abnormal.



I did get the original alternator checked and it passed. I still have the stocker as a backup if it ever decides to give up.



I have "tested" the fuses a few times and they are all fine. What I was referring to was checking the fuses for the draw... amp test... where I need a charged battery.



Thanks for your help Jim.

 

[steved]

jelag: That 20 second pump-thing is only if they had the ECM reflashed on the early trucks... until I had my Jr installed (with the updated ECM software), the only way I could get an extended run of the fuel pump was to "bump" the starter and then leave the key on. Mine would cycle for only a few seconds and shut of otherwise.

As fast as its drawing batteries down, it should be easy enough to isolate your electrical problem... that's a lot of draw to pull two batteries down in that length of time.

 

[jelag]

steved...

I have an 04 manual on CD, it gives that 20 second pump cycle in the testing of the fuel pump circuit... . I own several trucks, and couldn't tell you if they have been flashed...

And you noticed that it worked above...

Also remember that he is telling us that he is using a trickle charger which I never found out how much current it was putting back into the batteries... so they in fact might not have been fully charged. .

 

[Pawpaw]

I'm no expert, but I'm going to chime in on one question he asked and no one answered, that I saw.



You don't need to purge air from the fuel system on these newer engines. In fact, trying to do so by cracking the lines is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.



The injector lines have very high pressure (hence the High Pressure Common Rail name). Cracking a line and starting the engine can allow a high-pressure leak that is a close cousin to a steam leak. If that sometimes invisible jet of fuel hits your skin, it can either slice you badly (take a finger off!) or inject diesel fuel into your body.



In other words, don't do it. The system will automatically return any air to the tank.



Somebody please correct anything I got wrong.



Bob

 

[jelag]

Bob... your right on... . when we talked about cycling the pump I just assume that most people would understand that the fuel pressure regulator would return some of the fuel and air to the tank... thus dealing with the air... I agree with you 100% never get your hand next to a open line... I was taught that when you have an injector out on a test bench and test it... never get your hand under the spray... But you bring up a great point, what some of us assume as the norm others might not even think about it...

 

[Pawpaw]

This is the line that set off alarm bells in my head:



"I tried cracking three of the high pressure lines at the head and cranking it over... barely got a trickle of fuel. "



I'm thinking he was lucky the in-tank lift pump wasn't working.



Bob