Flaming Banks

[Ramboy]

Well folks, I'm afraid that I am going to have eat a little crow here. All along I have been a staunch supporter of Banks products. All the way up to today when I had my truck dyno'd. When I bought my Banks Power Pack they advertised "up to" (key words) 127 h. p. and "up to" 300 lbs. torque. My truck is, I believe, stock rated at 215/420 flywheel. If you add the 127/300 for the Banks, that would give 342/720 flywheel. I then added the DTT TC & VB which should severely diminish my drive-train losses. Next came the sportbike injectors which were supposed to add 70 h. p. I don't know about the torque but I will assume 100 lbs. This should have given me 412/820. Assuming I may still have had a 15% drivetrain loss, more or less, this would have given me 350/697 which is about where I figured I should be power-wise. I dyno'd a disappointing 303/567. Now I am convinced the injectors delivered as promised. Subtracting the injector power leaves me with the firm belief that the Banks Power Pack gave me no more than a 70 h. p. / 150 lb. torque gain.

At the very least, they are guilty of a serious misrepresentation of their product. I always wondered why they do not have a dyno at their location. I don't have to wonder anymore. And I will not hide behind a pseudonym.

Phil Gorham

e-mail -- email address removed --

 

[illflem]

Phil, they do have a dyno at their location I've personally seen it in use. You should be complaining to them, not us.

 

[Benson]

You can't really add up gains like that. Any rated gains are relevant to stock parts but you just can't keep adding cumulatively, it just doesn't work that way. Lacking for a better example, it's like an engine with half the displacement doesn't give twice the mileage.

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by Benson

You can't really add up gains like that. Any rated gains are relevant to stock parts but you just can't keep adding cumulatively, it just doesn't work that way. Lacking for a better example, it's like an engine with half the displacement doesn't give twice the mileage.

Actually you can add it up like that if you know the products in question. I do it all the time and am usually within 5 to 15hp on my estimate. The key word is if ya know the products.



And Ramboy, please contact Banks on the matter see if they can help you in anyway or offer to.

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

Find out the Dyno's ,

Load Production capability. My Dyno only can produce a 5,000 LB load (The truck weighs in at 7300) which would not let EGT's go any higher than 800 and I put down with only the powerpack and stock trans 272. My boost would not make anything over 30 LBS and the truck reved like it was in nutral thru the gears.

<hr>

Truck Bio:

Y2K+1 3500 4X4 Quad Cab 4:10:1 LSD



Powerpack By Bank's (4 inch exhaust,High ram intake,wastgate mod to 38 psi,ottomind TLC +guages,K&N) , Jakit's Front End Leveling Kit with 255/85R16 BFG http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/ M/T's Custom Rhino Liner (see Tool Man's truck feature)DeeZee Black Diamond Plate Bed Rails And Tool Box , WAAG Side tubes with kick~outs Mopar Performance accessories-Sill plates-hitch cover-cargo aux lamp'n'Power, Hadley air systems 150 psi comp and air storage. DTT~93%TC~&~VB~TC Smart controller, Mag-Hytec'sDouble Deep Trans pan,DD injectors+Van Aken+Autometer Guages. Check out Tool's Stuff#ad

 

[Ramboy]

Bill,

When I had my Banks installed last December, I considered going to Cal. and having them do the install. When I asked the salesman if they had a dyno so I could the results, I was told that they did not have one. So, like a lot of others, I relied on info from their personnel.



Benson,

What you are saying is that no matter how many performance improvements you put on, your h. p. can never be any higher than your best added improvement. I'm sorry but that makes no sense. Why would anyone add more than one mod. ?



Phil

 

[WeirCummin]

Phil, The injectors are part of the problem. Now I'm not saying that the injectors are bad, I've got the same set in my truck and they dynoed for 73HP. alone. The problem is in the TLC-temperature limiting control from the Banks Ottomind. I'll bet that if you disconnected the TLC portion of the Banks kit your numbers would come right up. I think your truck runs great and maybe the dyno shouldn't be the only indicator of a trucks performance.

 

[Ramboy]

Dean,

I would probably agree with you if there had not been another 24V truck there with Banks Stinger Plus (same performance improvement and no TLC) and 275 injectors dyno at 260 h. p. I figure the difference between our trucks is only the injectors.

Phil

 

[Benson]

We just have to keep track of the mods. I've known guys that will add, say 275 injectors and then later add stage 3 or whatever and then add that rated improvement to their power figure. If stage 3 give 50 hp you can't add that to the 30 or so that the 275's give. That's all.

 

[Texas Diesel]

RAMBOY, thanks for posting this. Keep us informed as you sort it out.



Benson, excellent point.

 

[Tom W]

My truck was the other one that Phil refered to. I have been very happy with the performance and thought I would dyno at least 300hp. The 259hp and 475 torque was disapointing to say the least. I do not blame Banks, as I said I have been happy with the performance, and I wouldn't have a problem if I hadn't seen that da** dyno. Now it's going to cost me more $$$ to repair my ego, I've just got to have over 300hp to get ahead of Phil. My problem is how?

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by Tom W

My truck was the other one that Phil refered to. I have been very happy with the performance and thought I would dyno at least 300hp. The 259hp and 475 torque was disapointing to say the least. I do not blame Banks, as I said I have been happy with the performance, and I wouldn't have a problem if I hadn't seen that da** dyno. Now it's going to cost me more $$$ to repair my ego, I've just got to have over 300hp to get ahead of Phil. My problem is how?

Depends on how you wanna approach it. A EZ and DDII's = 300hp roughly. Roughly $1000 give or take a few bucks.



You have to decide which route you wish to go, a different box? Or different injectors? Either way an EZ or VA will work with the Banks kit I believe.



What kinda dyno was this on? I would try another one to see if the numbers are even close? Your torque sounds mighty low for having an upgraded engine.

 

[Tom W]

KatDiesel, it was a Dynojet. When pulling my 5th wheel, grossing about 19K, I had no problem maintaining 70mph on most interstate hills in central US. I recently sold the 5th wheel and won't be doing any towing so my requirements are now more fun related.

I probably won't do anything until the Texas rally in Sept. I want to see what Bill K and Piers are doing.

 

[Ramafid]

I think Dyno's are not as accurate as people think. Go take your truck to the track, run it down the quarter, then weigh your truck. With that info you can figure HP and Torque. I ran my completely stock truck and came up with 225 HP (it ran better than most) and then added DTT,DDTT,and 275's and came up with 310 HP I have used these formulas for my other trucks and they are very accurate. Here they are:



HP = weight / (ET / 5. 825) cubed



HP = (mph / 234) cubed * weight



Torque= ( 5252 * HP) / rpm



You can really only find torque at 2700 rpm which should be the HP peak .

 

[Ramboy]

Tom,

You better get something good. I'm already working on my next mod.

Phil

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I agree with Ramafid. I've dyno'd on three different Mustang dynos. The first time was at Scheids last year and I had an original Powermax and 275 injectors and ran a 313/763. I had run the truck down the dragstrip before adding the 275 injectors and ran a 17. 3@79. 25 mph and that calculates out to 285hp by ET and 291 hp by ET (7500 lb race weight). The injectors should add 30-40 hp so that was fairly accurate. Early this year I dyno'd on TST's mustang dyno after putting a TST Powermax3 (much more aggresive than the original powermax) on the truck and only hit 306/753. Yet with that combo I ran a 15. 784@87. 97 mph which calculates out to 377 hp by ET and 398 hp by MPH. So I "somehow" lost 7 hp but gained 1. 5 seconds in the 1/4!! I also dyno'd my truck on another mustang at the Muncie event this year and ran only 286 hp and ran 16. 3's-16. 5's in the 1/4 (there was a couple slower runs in there but I missed shifts so I'm not counting those) - my truck had problems that weekend but the dragstrip still showed higher numbers than the dyno. Keep in mind that all 3 of these dyno's were Mustang dyno's. After my experience (I've run dyno's in the past on my race bikes too) dyno's are great for putting your truck on the dyno, then doing some mods and dynoing it again to gauge the difference. What I don't think you can do is take numbers from different days and accurately compare them. My opinion is that dragstrip ET's and MPH's are a more accurate gauge.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Steve St. Laurent

... After my experience (I've run dyno's in the past on my race bikes too) dyno's are great for putting your truck on the dyno, then doing some mods and dynoing it again to gauge the difference. ...

Dynos are also good for load testing a vehicle in the shop, obviating the need to perform possibly illegal, possibly hazardous, road tests.



As to HP differences, one must also bear in mind that rated HP and rear-wheel HP are two different beasts. My '98 12V, auto, is rated at 180 HP. But, after instaling 215HP injectors, JRE 4" exhaust, K&N filter and Amsoil throughout and having Cummins Atlantic spillport-time the pump and adjust the overhead, their dyno showed 172 RWHP. They (and others here) say that that is quite respectable and significantly greater than stock.



As a recent TDR issue hinted (very strongly, I might add - I think they were attempting to politely apply a 2x4 to our heads. ), one should *always* record a performance baseline. Then one should tune the existing system to peak performance and re-measure. *Then* one can start adding aftermarket equipment and measuring each time. When all is done, you will see just how accurate the mfr's figures are.



If your system is out of tune, add-ons will not yield as much performance gain. For example, if my truck is running at only 70% efficiency, I should not, and would not, expect aftermarket performace mods to add more than 70% or so of their rated enhancements.



Systems engineering can be quite tedious and time consuming. But it's the only way to acquire valid data.



Fest3er

 

[KatDiesel]

Of course dynos are not the most accurate things in the world, too many variables and the same can be said for using the drag strip. It is good for a general idea of things. And great for dynoing, change parts, redyno and see the gain right then and there. Not everyone has the time, know how or a dragstrip close to them, usually easier to find a dyno of some sort.

 

[PeterT]

Phil,

First of all, we do have a chassis dyno. It is a dual electric absorber dyno with 20” rolls, with full electronic controls. The dyno is operating about 30 hours a week for Engineering development. We do not sell time on it for customer installs. In a rare instance, we will use it to trouble shoot a vehicle, but nothing beyond that.



The key to evaluating dyno numbers is to realize that the numbers that we provide are a before and after comparison. There are many factors that could be playing into why you are not seeing the exact numbers that appear in our advertising. Some of the other posts on this thread have dealt with some of the reasons, including the fact that you can’t always just add numbers together from multiple power enhancements and expect the final outcome to be the sum of those.



There are two other things that I would question. Were you running on a load style dyno (like ours) or an acceleration dyno (like a DynoJet)? The data from these two different types can be very different. Either type of dyno can provide good comparative data (before and after), but the data from one type should not be compared to data from the other. For that matter, comparing data from one dyno in a particular location with a given set of ambient conditions can’t really compare to a different dyno in another location with potentially different conditions. But any dyno should be useful for determining percentage gains from a before and after test.



The other issue is the temperature-limiting feature (TLC) of the Banks OttoMind. If you were operating at the maximum allowable EGT, the OttoMind will automatically reduce the additional fuel delivery, thus diminishing horsepower and torque. This limitation may be reached prematurely if there is inadequate airflow introduced to the front of the vehicle. We use two massive fans (removed from a carwash) to simulate 60 MPH into the grille of the vehicle when testing. This gives us a condition that is similar to what the vehicle would actually have while traveling down the road.



Our test data is an exact representation of vehicles that have been tested here under controlled conditions. If you are interested in duplicating that type of a test scenario, let me know and I will be happy to describe the full detail of our testing to you.

 

[Ramboy]

Peter,

Thanks for replying on this matter. This run was done on a Dynojet . I will have further dyno tests done and if the difference is remarkably different, I will be the first to post that I was wrong. I still don't believe that the TLC was a contributor to this read-out. As I said in my post, there was a Stinger Plus without TLC there and he was as disappointed as I was. On my next test I will do a run with TLC and a run without. I will post results after that test. Thanks again.



Phil