Fleetguard replacements for FASS filters

[hazefire]

I'm having a hard time finding info on fass filter replacements. It's a titanium model with XWS-3002 and PF-3001. What would be the Fleetguard replacement for this setup?

 

[AH64ID]

FF5814 would be the best secondary filter, followed by the FF5320. Both of those have Donaldson crosses that are just as good, or better, and cheaper. DBF5814 would be my choice.

For the f/w sep the Baldwin BF1212 is hard to beat, and better than the Fleetguard equivalent.

 

[hazefire]

FF5814 would be the best secondary filter, followed by the FF5320. Both of those have Donaldson crosses that are just as good, or better, and cheaper. DBF5814 would be my choice.

For the f/w sep the Baldwin BF1212 is hard to beat, and better than the Fleetguard equivalent.

I was under the impression fleetguard filters were the best for these. Thanks for the info

 

[AH64ID]

I was under the impression fleetguard filters were the best for these. Thanks for the info

Fleetguard filters are good filters, but there are better for nearly every application on the older stuff and aftermarket stuff.

 

[hazefire]

Fleetguard filters are good filters, but there are better for nearly every application on the older stuff and aftermarket stuff.

What about the oil filter?

 

[AH64ID]

What about the oil filter?

Donaldson DBL7349 is the best option we can get.

 

[GAmes]

Donaldson DBL7349 is the best option we can get.

I disagree. The Fleetguard lf9028 filter is reported to filter down to 2 microns. I use them for my extended drains. New filter every 15,000 miles after an oil analysis and oil change at 30,000 with an oil analysis. My oil analysis results are always excellent. I once went to 43,000 miles but the soot level went above 0.1% which is probably not harmful but sort of bugged me. All other elements were well withing spec.

 

[Cummins12V98]

Donaldson DBL7349 is the best option we can get.

Better than the current AMZ/OIL filter?

 

[AH64ID]

I disagree. The Fleetguard lf9028 filter is reported to filter down to 2 microns. I use them for my extended drains. New filter every 15,000 miles after an oil analysis and oil change at 30,000 with an oil analysis. My oil analysis results are always excellent. I once went to 43,000 miles but the soot level went above 0.1% which is probably not harmful but sort of bugged me. All other elements were well withing spec.

LF9028's full flow portion is rated 100% at 30µ, 98.7% at 25µ, and the bypass portion is rated 95% at 5µ. The bypass portion is only getting 5% of the oil at a given time.

The DBL7349 is 100% at 20µ, 98.7% at 15µ, and 60% at 7µ.

Then there is flow rating to consider. The oil pump is rated for 20.5 GPM at 4200 rpms, which is above where we often drive but that's how it's spec'd. The Donaldson is rated for 20 GPM and the Fleetguard LF9028 is only rated for 8.72 GPM.

Lastly, Cummins/Fleetguard doesn't list the LF9028 as an ISB rated filter. It's a Kubota filter. Cummins/Fleetguard does make venturi combo filters for other automotive markets, but not the ISB...

The Fleetguard is a good filter, but it's not better than the Donaldson, and not approved for use on these engines.

Soot being low deals more with the engine's operation than the filter because any full flow filter isn't capable of vast amounts of soot removal as most soot particles are sub micron and modern oils have additives that keep soot from agglomerating and being filtered out, even by 2µ absolute bypass filters.

Better than the current AMZ/OIL filter?

Yes. When Amsoil stopped using the Donaldson media the filter lost a little rating and is now a 20µ absolute filter.

 

[GAmes]

LF9028's full flow portion is rated 100% at 30µ, 98.7% at 25µ, and the bypass portion is rated 95% at 5µ. The bypass portion is only getting 5% of the oil at a given time.

The DBL7349 is 100% at 20µ, 98.7% at 15µ, and 60% at 7µ.

Then there is flow rating to consider. The oil pump is rated for 20.5 GPM at 4200 rpms, which is above where we drive but that's how it's spec'd. The Donaldson is rated for 20 GPM and the Fleetguard LF9028 is only rated for 8.72 GPM.

That is how bypass filtration systems work, be they two filters or the lf9028. Only a small portion gets routed to the bypass. Over a period of time all the oil in the system is filtered to two microns.

Flow percentages mean little to me. What are the micron filtration ratings of the Donaldson and the full flow portion of the 9028? I have a feeling they are the same, and also the same as the Fleetguard lf16035.

 

[AH64ID]

That is how bypass filtration systems work, be they two filters or the lf9028. Only a small portion gets routed to the bypass. Over a period of time all the oil in the system is filtered to two microns.

Most bypass filters get about 10% of the oil, and have a lot more media. The LF9028 get's 1/2 that oil at any given time and has a LOT less media.

The bypass filters I've ran in the past are absolute (98.7%) at 2µ, where the bypass discs on the LF9028 are 95% at 5µ.

The LF9028 is a good theory, but it's an undersized full flow element with a very undersized and underperforming bypass element.

Flow percentages mean little to me. What are the micron filtration ratings of the Donaldson and the full flow portion of the 9028? I have a feeling they are the same, and also the same as the Fleetguard lf16035.

Flow is not a percent, it's gallons per minute. The LF9028 doesn't have the flow to support the oil pumps rated capacity, but neither does the LF16035. It's not normally an issue at cruise rpms, but I imagine the filter might create enough psid to open the filter bypass at higher rpms.

Micron ratings are posted above, but they are not the same.

The LF16035/LF9028 full flow is 100% at 30µ and absolute (98.7%) at 25µ.

The DBL7349 is 100% at 20µ, and absolute at 15µ.

 

[GAmes]

Most bypass filters get about 10% of the oil, and have a lot more media. The LF9028 get's 1/2 that oil at any given time and has a LOT less media.

The bypass filters I've ran in the past are absolute (98.7%) at 2µ, where the bypass discs on the LF9028 are 95% at 2µ.

The LF9028 is a good theory, but it's an undersized full flow element with a very undersized and underperforming bypass element.

Flow is not a percent, it's gallons per minute. The LF9028 doesn't have the flow to support the oil pumps rated capacity, but neither does the LF16035. It's not normally an issue at cruise rpms, but I imagine the filter might create enough psid to open the filter bypass at higher rpms.

Micron ratings are posted above, but they are not the same.

The LF16035/LF9028 full flow is 100% at 30µ and absolute (98.7%) at 25µ.

The DBL7349 is 100% at 20µ, and absolute at 15µ.

Everything you have stated shows the lf9028 filters to a lower micron rating that the Donaldson. Who cares if only 10 or even 5 percent of the oil is in the bypass portion at any given time? The point is ALL the oil eventually flows through a two micron filter. Flow gpm, IMO, is not a factor during normal operation. But if someone can provide an oil analysis after 15,000 miles using the Donaldson showing the same or better results I could be persuaded to change. The lf9028 is starting to get expensive because of it's increasing popularity.

 

[AH64ID]

Everything you have stated shows the lf9028 filters to a lower micron rating that the Donaldson. Who cares if only 10 or even 5 percent of the oil is in the bypass portion at any given time? The point is ALL the oil eventually flows through a two micron filter. Flow gpm, IMO, is not a factor during normal operation. But if someone can provide an oil analysis after 15,000 miles using the Donaldson showing the same or better results I could be persuaded to change. The lf9028 is starting to get expensive because of it's increasing popularity.

It's not a 2µ filter, why do you keep calling it that?

All the oil also goes thru the Donaldson time and time again, and it's full flow ratings are significantly better than the Stratapore media. At the end of the day all the oil is filtered with better media 100% of the time with the Donaldson, making it a better full flow filter.

If you want a true bypass then install one that's actually absolute at 2µ and has enough media to be worthwhile. With how little bypass media is in the LF9028 it's pretty conceivable that the bypass portion plugs to the point of being ineffective in 15K miles and then you're down to a undersized full flow filter. Large (1-2qt capacity) true bypass filters have reduced flow in 15K miles, the undersized LF9028 bypass portion will be the same.

Personally I wouldn't use the LF9028 on the ISB because of the flow restriction it can impose with the reduced full flow media over a standard full flow filter, not to mention it's not rated for use on these engines by it's manufacturer. I'm not opposed to using filters that aren't intended for the application they are used on, but the LF9028 doesn't pass the sniff test for the ISB.

I don't have any UOA's with a DBL7349 that didn't include a true 2µ bypass filter, and even then it's from a different generation of engine so it's apples to oranges. Even then, soot is incredibly difficult to filter out with CI and newer oils, which is one of the reasons I stopped running a bypass filter. Soot just isn't an indicator of a filters performance anymore.

I'd like to see your UOA with a DBL7349 as that would be the best comparison since it would be the same engine and driving style. But it would take more than a standard UOA, you would need to do particulate samples on both filters to fully understand which one is working better.

 

[GAmes]

I'm not concerned about soot. It is engine damaging contaminates that I want filtered out. Soot for the most part is just black dye in the whole scheme of things.

I don't see where a 20 gallon per minute flow is relevant. I know that you do not think the engine pumps it's entire oil supply through the filter seven times every minute. Even twice in a minute (8.72) seems high to me.

 

[GAmes]

It's not a 2µ filter, why do you keep calling it that?

.... the bypass discs on the LF9028 are 95% at 2µ.

500,000 miles using this filter doesn't pass the sniff test? What does?

 

[AH64ID]

When you consider the overdriven ratio of the oil pump then 4200 rpms isn't all that fast. I'm trying to find the ratio of engine rpms to oil pump rpms.


EDIT: 24 teeth on the oil pump drive gear and 36 on the crank, for a gear ratio of .667. So the engine only has to be turning 2800 to get 20 GPM. At 2000 engine rpms the oil pump is turning 3000 rpms.

500,000 miles using this filter doesn't pass the sniff test? What does?

Ugh, typo... sorry 95% at 5µ, not 2µ. Post fixed. Typo aside, 95% isn't the percentage used to annotate a filters rating, absolute (98.7%) is. Consider the FF5320, it says 2µ applications on the filter but it's actually a 5µ absolute filter, and should be called a 5µ filter.

And no, it still doesn't pass the sniff test. You have no way of knowing if the bypass portion is plugging and being bypassed (pun intended). It has too small of a full flow section to pass the sniff test. It's working well for you, but that's independent of the sniff test. I still wouldn't recommend it for the ISB/6BT based on my research.

At the end of the day the ISB/6BT's aren't known for oil related issues and even with the smaller full flow media the LF9028 is likely better than the Mopar OE filter.

Fun discussion.

 

[GAmes]

When you consider the overdriven ratio of the oil pump then 4200 rpms isn't all that fast. I'm trying to find the ratio of engine rpms to oil pump rpms.


EDIT: 24 teeth on the oil pump drive gear and 36 on the crank, for a gear ratio of .667. So the engine only has to be turning 2800 to get 20 GPM. At 2000 engine rpms the oil pump is turning 3000 rpms.

Fun discussion.

I'm not arguing the pump isn't capable of that much volume but the restrictions of the engine would not permit that much flow. In reality, how many gallons per minute do you think the filter actually sees at 2000 rpm? I sincerely doubt it is anywhere near twice the oil capacity of the engine and certainly not seven times.

Also, if the bypass was being bypassed I wouldn't have the low numbers I'm seeing on analysis.

 

[AH64ID]

I'm not arguing the pump isn't capable of that much volume but the restrictions of the engine would not permit that much flow. In reality, how many gallons per minute do you think the filter actually sees at 2000 rpm? I sincerely doubt it is anywhere near twice the oil capacity of the engine and certainly not seven times.

Yeah it does seem high, but there are some substantial users with the piston cooling nozzles, turbo, etc. I'd also be curious if the 20.5 GPM rating is at 0 psi or what psi it's at.

It wouldn't surprise me if at 2000 rpms that 6-8 GPM is being pumped on a warmed up engine. The oil pressure relief valve opens at 75 psi, which I don't recall occurring on a warmed up engine, so all the oil being pumped is going thru the filter once warm.

It does seem odd that the Fleetguard filter would be rated so much lower than the oil pump, but those are the numbers that are published.

 

[BigPapa]

Counting the teeth on the crank gear (42), idler gear (22), and oil pump gear (24), the ratio is 1.75:1. Engine at 1K RPM, oil pump is turning 1,750 RPM.

EDIT: This info is incorrect. See post #21.

 

[AH64ID]

Counting the teeth on the crank gear (42), idler gear (22), and oil pump gear (24), the ratio is 1.75:1. Engine at 1K RPM, oil pump is turning 1,750 RPM.

I counted 36 on the crank gear. Are they different for different years?