2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission ford 6.4 and cummins in sonomish pass WA.

[ChrisOlson]

SO i am coming back from my trip around the country.
bellingham WA to key west and many points in between. 12000 miles total.
Pulling My 30 ft Fiver. total GCVW 18000 lbs. I start into the first up grade going west. in front of me is a new ford dually 6. 4 (could tell by the tailpipe) pulling about a 25 ft bumper pull flatbed trailer pretty heavy i would guess we were about the same weight. he is in left lane #2 nothing in front of him, big slow semi left lane #1 I pass on the left in left lane #3 I want to keep the speed up so i can keep the rig cool and not drop a gear or 2. I pass at 70 mph up hill no problem holding 30 lbs of boost. pyros good and 3 or 4 truck lengths behind is the ford. as we go down the next grade he blows by me at about 80. we start up the next grade half way up I still am maintaining 70 I pass again up at the top 4 truck length behind me next down grade same thing blows by me at 80 plus, next up grade same thing i start to pass and he pulls in front of me, at the same time he blows a left rear trailer tire and pieces of rubber and what ever else are falling off the truck. ford 6. 4 makes a dash to the right for the emergency lane and I dash to the left to avoid debris. I wanted to help but i was in no position to help.

I stop in north bend for fuel and a quick nap. while napping in the drivers seat a knock at the window wakes me up. it is 6. 4 ford diesel guy. well i am a tad bit nervous I roll down the window and ask what do you need. he wants to know what kind of engine I have in this truck. I say cummins. he says no way my ford dealer said that nothing could touch the new ford 6. 4 and of course I said You have Just been Touched by a cummins have a nice day. I started her up and headed for bellingham to finish the trip home to Alaska. what a fitting end to my trip. and to think I almost traded my CTD in for a ford at my wifes suggestion??

 

[HBarlow]

A good story.

I don't have any experience outpulling Ford 6. 4s but outpulled lots of GMs and Ferd 6. 0s when I was transporting. The V8 diesels are only powerful in their brochures and the stories of their salesmen. The Ferd was probably down one gear, possibly two on the upgrade and his tach needle was up around the redline while you were simply humming along in top gear.

Real diesel engines show what they can do when loaded heavy on the long highway pulls.

 

[Grizzly]

I had a simular experience going to Alaska 3 years ago. We were hauling our, then, 11' 3" Lance truck camper on our 05 Dodge. We were on a 2 lane highway somewhere near Dawson Creek. A new Furd Super Duty with a 6. 0 Powerjoke and simular load was in front of us and loosing speed going up a grade. We passed him with no more acceleration then my cruise control set at 62 mph. When the road flatten out he passed us. On the next hill as he was loosing speed again, I went to pass him again. This time he wouldn't let me. He moved into the left lane and when I went back to the right lane, he went back to the right. I tried it again and again he blocked me. When the road got flat, he'd leave us way behind. Then on the next hill, we'd be on his tail and going too slow. Going up one hill I totally surprised him and gave my truck all it had and went around him so fast that there was nothing he could do except give us a dumbfounded and surprise look. I kept my speed up so that he could never catch up with us again. That's the last I saw of him.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Instances like those reported above, were the icing on the cake for the mods I've done on my own truck. We used to regularly tow up over I-80, between Sacramento and Reno - pretty decent grade - and also up over Hwy 50 from Sacramento to campgrounds in Pollock Pines, above Auburn.



MANY times, some guy towing a setup in our general weight class would blow by us out in the flats of the Sacramento valley, with the Sierra looming up just ahead - and my wife, knowing me, would ask if I was going to let him "get away with that" - she knows me pretty well... :-laf



I'd just smile, and reply that I had the cruise control set for 60 MPH or so, which was my comfort zone for towing - and that we'd be seeing that Ford or GM again soon enough in the grades just coming into view ahead.



Sure enough, as the steepness of the grade increased, THEIR speed decreased - and still on the cruise control, we'd neatly roll right on by, with a smile and a wave... And like those stories above, on the downgrade that followed, those guys would come-a-running and smoking on by, apparently feeling their ability to go fast DOWNHILL, made up for their lack of power UPHILL! :-laf



And yeah - SOME of those guys DO take it personally, when THEIR toy can't keep up with OURS! :-laf

 

[AClayton]

These stories are all too familiar on our ATV trips to the mountains of WVA. We take I-64 from 81 west into the hilly region. All of the trucks in our group are the popular 6. 0's and I'm the only exception with my truck. Several grades are long winded and steep even for Interstates. As the mountains come into sight you'll start noticing the speed increase at the base of the hill while I easily maintain my cruising rpm. By this time,I'm getting strange looks of concern from my passengers,that we will be left behind. I always catch up and then pass until the downhill section reverses the role and the viscous cycle continues. What those guys seemingly don't get is when they get the yellow low-fuel warning in the dash,I look down to retrieve the information provided by my fuel gauge that says I still have a 1/2 tank left. What makes this even more interesting is my trailer is heavier and I generally carry 3 more atv's than they do.



Alan

 

[HBarlow]

I forgot, I did have one recent experience outpulling a new Ford but I'm not sure if it was a 6. 0 or 6. 4 engine so I won't make any outrageous claims.

Last May, as I left May Madness @ Pahrump headed toward Las Vegas I happened to slowly come up behind the PacBrake guy from Canada. I was running at a steady 62 with cruise control IIRC. Can't remember his name but I think he is the PacBrake owner and is a nice guy. He was a sponsor at the event as was pulling a large fifth wheel toy box. My truck was brand new, only a few thousand miles, too new to loosen up and too tight to be running it hard. I was pulling my 14,000# HitchHiker when we started up that long, hard pull into Las Vegas. I couldn't resist. As the Ferd began to slow I was slowly closing the distance coming up behind him. The polite thing to have done would have been to slow with him and stay behind him. I couldn't avoid the temptation! I put my foot in it, not enough to cause a downshift, but enough to keep pulling and I slowly eased on by the Ford and opened the distance as we continued up the grade. To his credit, Mr. Pacbrake waved and smiled as I cruised on by. My C&C is a standard factory stock detuned ISB6. 7 rated at only 305hp and 610 torque. I have no idea if his Ferd was all OEM or not, but him being PacBrake I wondered if it wasn't enhanced.

It's hard to avoid the tempation when one of those pretender trucks is impeding traffic flow.

 

[AABEN]

I have found out that the GM is the only one that comes close to pulling with my dodge. When I was in TX a man try to short cut to a camp spot and hung it up. GM with a 38 ft. fifth wheel. A ton ford and a 3/4 both hooked up to him at the same time and try to pull him out no can do!! I went over and ask the driver of the GM if I could try. He said yes if a wrecker came out they said around 800. 00 When I backed up to him the driver of the ton ford sad jest a nother dam dodge. I broke his chain I told him to double it. Pulled the GM and trailer up on the camp site. When I left I look at him and said jest a nother dam dodge. The GM was on the back axle.

 

[Grizzly]

Good story blackbear.

 

[JFringer]

good story. i bought my first cummins when i was 17. my dad is a huge powerstroke fan and said that the cummins was nothing but junk. he gave me a ride to pick it up from the guy i bought it from and as we both pulled up to a stoplight on the way home he said lets see whats its got. i said ok then waited for the green light and mashed it. ever since then he has been looking for a used cummins. by the way he has a 7. 3..... big diference in displacement between the 5. 9 and the 7. 3 but you would be amazed by the power of the 5. 9 over the 7. 3

 

[EArp]

he says no way my ford dealer said that nothing could touch the new ford 6. 4 and of course I said You have Just been Touched by a cummins have a nice day.

NICE!! Reading these stories never gets old... :-laf My uncle who is a 6. 0 owner has finally admitted "the Cummins is the better motor". I think deep down he burns with envy when he hears the sweet sound of my straight pipe!

 

[m1ashooter]

Being a past owner of a chipped and opened up 96 7. 3, my stock Cummins will not pull with it. Now I am sure when I get done this will be so lopsided it won't even be funny.



Coming hom over Horshoe Bend Hill in SW Idaho, towing my jetboat I could only manage 50 mph, thats a 6% plus grade at about 14k GVW



my Ford did 62...



Guess I better fix that Ppump so it's working correctly.

 

[HBarlow]

So a modified V8 Navistar engine could out perform a stock 12 valve automatic with an old loose 47RE automatic. What's your point? Why'd you replace the Ferd with a Dodge-Cummins?

 

[m1ashooter]

well, first off it's not a slushbox, wouldn't own one.



I bought the Dodge because I think it's a better motor, but in stock form, it's ok, but nothing spectacular, now after I get done with it, it should be a hot rod... .



if I could have my choice it would be a Ford with the 5. 9 12V and allison auto, but all other things being equal, I can work on this one, anything newer it gets harder to next to impossible...

 

[HBarlow]

Your point of view is interesting but not very valid.

All components are not equal under load. If the Ferd was carrying the additional weight of the Cummins on its front suspension and trying to handle the torque of the mighty Cummins at its rear end it would probably not be very reliable.

The Ford/Navistar 6. 0/6. 4/7. 3 engines don't produce much torque at idle or down low on the tach. The 6. 0 produces about as much torque as a lawn tractor at 1000 to 1600 rpm. They have to wind to 2000 - 2500 rpm to produce torque so the application of full-rated torque climbs relatively slowly and produces far less stress on the driveline than a real diesel engine, the inline six cylinder Cummins, which snaps to full torque over a very narrow rpm band somewhat like a light switch being flipped to on.

The Allison used behind the duradog is not a true Allison along the same design as the medium duty version used in MDT/motorhome applications. It is an okay transmission behind the duradog which produces only modest torque at idle and lower rpm and builds slowly. Behind the mighty Cummins it would likely be an entirely different story. You will never find an Allison 1000 behind a Cummins, Caterpillar, or Navistar inline six in a MDT, even in a GM 6500/7500. I don't think it would live behind the Cummins engine.

All Cummins ISB engines produce at least 350+ ft. lbs. of torque at idle and "snap" to max torque of 400 to 650 ft. lbs. of torque in only a few rpm. The ISB6. 7 produces 400 ft. lbs. at idle and 650 ft. lbs. (automatic transmission pickup application) at 1500 rpm.

Each man has to make his own choices. My choice is a Cummins engine in a Dodge Ram platform. No Ferds or Government Motors trucks for me.

 

[Grizzly]

well, first off it's not a slushbox, wouldn't own one.



I bought the Dodge because I think it's a better motor, but in stock form, it's ok, but nothing spectacular, now after I get done with it, it should be a hot rod... .



if I could have my choice it would be a Ford with the 5. 9 12V and allison auto, but all other things being equal, I can work on this one, anything newer it gets harder to next to impossible...

Sounds like you're more loyal to furd. I believe you're in the wrong forum. You belong in theDieselStop.

 

[m1ashooter]

well, guys I am very pleased with this truck as I was the last, and expect this Dodge will last me many moons to come.



I am not brand loyal, and am badge blind, sadly many are not.

 

[HBarlow]

Personally, I don't give a hoot whether someone else is brand loyal or badge blind as you claim to be.

What troubles me is someone who clearly knows little beyond his opinions and comes on the TDR website as a brand new member preaching the virtues of another brand. If you like Ferds that is your business. If you attempt to tell us how good they are expect to get your opinions and claims shot down by many of us.

They'll agree with you over at the Ferd site, as Grizzly suggested.

 

[AClayton]

Your point of view is interesting but not very valid.



All components are not equal under load. If the Ferd was carrying the additional weight of the Cummins on its front suspension and trying to handle the torque of the mighty Cummins at its rear end it would probably not be very reliable.



The Ford/Navistar 6. 0/6. 4/7. 3 engines don't produce much torque at idle or down low on the tach. The 6. 0 produces about as much torque as a lawn tractor at 1000 to 1600 rpm. They have to wind to 2000 - 2500 rpm to produce torque so the application of full-rated torque climbs relatively slowly and produces far less stress on the driveline than a real diesel engine, the inline six cylinder Cummins, which snaps to full torque over a very narrow rpm band somewhat like a light switch being flipped to on.



The Allison used behind the duradog is not a true Allison along the same design as the medium duty version used in MDT/motorhome applications. It is an okay transmission behind the duradog which produces only modest torque at idle and lower rpm and builds slowly. Behind the mighty Cummins it would likely be an entirely different story. You will never find an Allison 1000 behind a Cummins, Caterpillar, or Navistar inline six in a MDT, even in a GM 6500/7500. I don't think it would live behind the Cummins engine.



All Cummins ISB engines produce at least 350+ ft. lbs. of torque at idle and "snap" to max torque of 400 to 650 ft. lbs. of torque in only a few rpm. The ISB6. 7 produces 400 ft. lbs. at idle and 650 ft. lbs. (automatic transmission pickup application) at 1500 rpm.



Each man has to make his own choices. My choice is a Cummins engine in a Dodge Ram platform. No Ferds or Government Motors trucks for me.

Harvey... . that is not entirely true. We all know the Cummins is a extremely stout engine... . but,The Allison is indeed a stout transmission that IS offered behind the old 5. 9 AND 6. 7 Cummins in RV chassis. As a matter of fact,the 6. 7 Cummins in the RV platform on the Frieghtliner chassis is rated at over 850torque but modestly rated at 300 hp. The Allison 2100 series which is basically the same as the Duradog transmission is somewhat more stout with a GCWR of 30K. The 1000 series is rated at 26K GCWR. The old FRED chassis offered for a few years with the 5. 9 and 1000 series Allison was a very durable combo. The Allison is a very good transmission behind any NON-modified diesel engine. You add more power to the Duramax and the transmission's electronics start flipping out and causing limp-modes and such. You add more to a Cummins,and no transmission will live behind it without serious and expensive mods. The Allison can be built to withstand modest increases in torque but a huge cost. When huge hp is made,better off to go with an alternate choice.



My MH has a gas sucking big block with the Allison behind it and I think it is an excellent transmission and has proven to be stout even pulling a heavy trailer behind. The 8. 1 in mine has been modded to about 30hp over stock and that hasn't caused any issues at all. I would like to bet that the Aison will be the better transmission than the Allison... . but we'll see.





Alan

 

[HBarlow]

I won't argue with your claim. I have never seen anything in print indicating the Allison 1000 was ever installed behind the Cummins but I could have simply missed it. If you claim to have seen it I'll accept your claim.

I'm not familiar with the 2100. I think I may have seen it mentioned in written literature somewhere now that you mention it. I don't remember what engine I saw it listed as compatible with. I'd guess it had to be significantly modified for Allison to rename it the 2100.

Using the Allison 1000 behind the duradog and certainly behind the gas V8 8. 1 liter is nothing to brag about. The 8. 1 probably only produces 400 - 425 ft. lbs. of torque and not until above 3000 rpm. It is much easier for an automatic transmission to handle high torque output at high repm than at low which the Cummins produces. The duradog, while certainly more powerful than a gas V8, operates in a similar manner producing little to moderate torque below 2500 rpm.

 

[AClayton]

I won't argue with your claim. I have never seen anything in print indicating the Allison 1000 was ever installed behind the Cummins but I could have simply missed it. If you claim to have seen it I'll accept your claim.



I'm not familiar with the 2100. I think I may have seen it mentioned in written literature somewhere now that you mention it. I don't remember what engine I saw it listed as compatible with. I'd guess it had to be significantly modified for Allison to rename it the 2100.



Using the Allison 1000 behind the duradog and certainly behind the gas V8 8. 1 liter is nothing to brag about. The 8. 1 probably only produces 400 - 425 ft. lbs. of torque and not until above 3000 rpm. It is much easier for an automatic transmission to handle high torque output at high repm than at low which the Cummins produces. The duradog, while certainly more powerful than a gas V8, operates in a similar manner producing little to moderate torque below 2500 rpm. [/QU



Harvey,



I f I had more time and was more computer saavy,I would post brochures on here. Go to Frieghtliner Rv XC chassis..... or Fred chassis. FRED stands for front engine diesel. The older models coupled the Allison 1000 with the 5. 9 Cummins.



The 8. 1L is certianly not a Duramax and not even close to the Cummins,but at 455ft. lbs of torque,it certainly the closest gas engine for comparison to any diesel..... at the expense of fuel mileage



The Allison shares the TC lock-up in lower gears with the Aison and I'm guessing that is why it can handle the torque better than many others. The trans in my Cummins was very weak when I purchased it used a few years ago. The previous owner never hot-rodded it or towed heavy with it for nearly 100K miles. I did the ATS VB and TC and deep pan along with a lock-up controller about 30K ago. All this on the factory transmission... no rebuild and with no problems. Love this combo and wish I had it in the RV where I could use the extra power.



Alan