Found! PERFECT pusher pump....

[Hohn]

Well, as we all know the stock lift pump sucks big time. I think I may have found the PERFECT pusher replacement pump.



It's made by AEROMOTIVE, a company that specializes in fuel components for racing and marine applications. Their street rod pump flows over 150 gph @18-20 psi. I think the pressure is safe (I heard that 22 PSI is about max), and the flow is certainly more than adequate.



Most importantly (by far) these things are known to be ultimately reliable. The internal guts of these pumps (actually, all of their products) are made from a superhard aerospace composite (like the Schubeck lifter, if you are into racing). That composite has a Rockwell hardness of over 90!



If you know about the Schubeck lifters, you can really start to appreciate how this composite could work wonders in a pump.



The company says it is compatible with alcohol and gasoline, but doesn't mention anything about diesel. Does a diesel pump require special design, or is a fuel pump a fuel pump in that sense??



Is the Carter P-pump designed for gas or diesel or both??



I think this pump could be the magic bullet of reliability if it can pump diesel. It is pricy, though. I saw it for $160 at Summit Racing. To me, that's not too bad for a lift pump cure.



OH, I should mention that it has standard 3/8" NPT in and out, so it should be easy to hook up.



*****NOT VENDOR AFFILIATED*********



Hohn

 

[Bigsaint]

I believe that there are a few guys on this site running that pump, don't recall hearing of a failure. If you can't get feedback, I'd call Aeromotive direct and ask to speak with a tech. I'd ask the following...



1) Can the pump handle diesel fuel ? It's a good question as some pumps are built with seals that don't do so well when confronted with diesel.



2) In our needs, would a return regulator be required to keep the pump from beating itself to death ?



3) Would it be wise to install a pre-filter or are the tolerances within the pump "loose enough" to handle some debris from the tank ?



Scott W.

 

[Hohn]

THanks

Scott, I think I am behind the power curve here and my "discovery" isn't a new idea at all. I will have to try harder to get ahead of the TDR gang!!



Those are specifically the questions I was thinking of. I spoke with another TDR member who was considering the pumps and had spoken with Aeromotive, and he said the aero hasn't "certified" it for diesel use. Whatever that means.



Does PE "certify" their pumps for diesel? I think the pump will work fine, and part of me even thinks that diesel is easier on the pump than gas. (lubricity offsets the viscosity)



The pump I was looking at delivers 18-20 PSI, which is right on in my book, and I wonder if I could get away without a regulator. If I was going to have to get a regulator anyway, might as well get the bigger pump and do it right..... THe AERO A1000-- man that pump give me good vibes.



HOHN

 

[banshee]

Does PE "certify" their pumps for diesel? I think the pump will work fine, and part of me even thinks that diesel is easier on the pump than gas. (lubricity offsets the viscosity)

The PE pumps are tested at the factory with diesel fuel, and they have given then ok for them to be used with diesel. While diesel may seem better on a pump, it can actually eat away seals over time that a not made to be used with diesel fuel. Many people make the mistake of using "gas" line instead of "fuel" line on diesel fuel systems, and the hoses will deteriorate over time. It's the same issue with seals inside the pump.



The PE4200 is rated at the same pressure (18-20) and flows 270gph... not that it needs that much, but it's there .



Btw, are you sure about that 90 rockwell? That's harder than carbide, one of the hardest substances in the world. Most carbide cutting tools fit in around the high70s - low 80s rockwell C (90-93 HRA), and even the purest forms of carbide are only in the mid 80s HRC.



John

 

[Hohn]

Rockwell hardness

Let me come clean and tell you that I am basing this not entirely on KNOWN fact.



RUMOR has it that the aero pumps use the same aerospace composite that Joe Schubeck engine lifters (all the rage in drag racing) use. Schubeck is a racing legend, and an aerospace materials engineer.



FACT is, that this composite is claimed by Schubeck to have over 90 Rockwell hardness (if my rusty brain remembers the Mopar Action article right). Experience would seem to bear this out. People are running the Schubeck lifter on their engines with KILLER spring pressure (over 800lbs!). After a whole season there is NO cam or lifter wear. The lifters are so hard that you never need to break in a cam.



Furthermore, this composite allows Schubeck to make a rounded lifter that works with roller cams, but doesn't have any moving parts. It's so hard that it can handle the aggressive ramps on these killer camshafts.



IF indeed this is the same or similar ceramic-based aerospace composite, then it stands to reason that an aeromotive pump would only have to worry about electrical durability, as the actual pumping mechanism (vanes and such) would seem to be almost indestructible.

 

[Bigsaint]

Sorry I didn't get back to ya sooner, banshee is all over it though . Diesel is not a problem for the PE pumps, according to PE.



Scott W.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Originally posted by Bigsaint

I believe that there are a few guys on this site running that pump, don't recall hearing of a failure.

MikeR just installed one on his truck (Scroll down to Dec. 4th post):



http://www.nwbombers.com/board/ikonboard.cgi?s=3deb7f8e448dffff;act=ST;f=13;t=1545



Vaughn

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"IF indeed this is the same or similar ceramic-based aerospace composite, then it stands to reason that an aeromotive pump would only have to worry about electrical durability, as the actual pumping mechanism (vanes and such) would seem to be almost indestructible. "





UMMMmmm - 'fraid not...



Saying those pumps are "indestructable" because of a "aerospace" rotor is much like claiming our Dodges are "indestructible" because of the Cummins engine...



There's MORE to a truck and it's overall excellence than simply the MOTOR - just as there's more to a pumps excellence than the rotor - things like bearings, various seals and bypass valves... - and yes, the electrical stuff you did mention...



A pump is JUST as worthless when a 2 cent seal fails, as it is when the rotor fails or seizes up!



I hope these pumps DO prove to be at least one alternative to our LP peoblem - but will wait and see... Aerospace or not!



Meanwhile, the more info and testing, the better.

 

[John]

Originally posted by Hohn





Most importantly (by far) these things are known to be ultimately reliable. The internal guts of these pumps (actually, all of their products) are made from a superhard aerospace composite (like the Schubeck lifter, if you are into racing). That composite has a Rockwell hardness of over 90!

I'm having a hard time visualizing internal pump parts that are harder than diamond or tungsten carbide... that's what you are basically stating (assuming you are talking about the Rockwell C scale which is most commonly used).



BTW, the particular pump listed is a relatively new offering from Aeromotive. The pump that gained the respect of many auto enthusiasts as well as some of the TDR members is the Aeromotive A1000... vastly different than the low cost Street Rod model.

 

[Hohn]

Well, looks like PE is the way to go

Well, it sounds like the A1000 is the REAL aeromotive pump, and it's almost the same price as the PE.



Why wouldn't I go with the PE then? It is tested and somewhat proven, and that TWO YEAR guarantee is enough to make it an easy buy.....





... . Provided that guarantee isn't like the DC one, and they aren't always looking for ways to back out of it.



HOHN

 

[Diesel Freak]

Hey john, I have a question... . what is the 'hardness' of Stellite... a cobalt alloy.



not going anywhere with this... just currious.

 

[Hohn]

OH...

BTW-- pardon the Rockwell inaccuracies. . maybe it said "approaching" Rockwell hardness of 90. I think it was Rockwell C, as I don't know if any other Rockwell hardness scale that's generally cited.







Vaughn: Mike's fuel system is EXACTLY what I had in my mind when I was picturing the Aero fuel pump install. Mike's setup seems to be a good alternative to the PE for less $$.



Gary: Once again, you are right. You have a habit of thinking outside the box, and that screws up my plans every time!! Oh well, better that than find out the hard (and expensive) way.



HOHN

 

[me4osu]

Re: Re: Found! PERFECT pusher pump....

Originally posted by John

(assuming you are talking about the Rockwell C scale which is most commonly used).

Not really. Rc is commonly used for most carbon steels. For most of the lower yield stainless alloys Rb is "commonly" used. Below is a table that kind of shows that.



DF - Stellite 6B is listed in the cobalt based section. Rc 36 - 37





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[John]

me4osu, In the machining trade, the Rockwell C scale is most commonly used although I have had some material come through with a hardness rating on the Rockwell B scale. The Brinell hardness number is also used quite often where I work.

 

[me4osu]

John,

Here in the "Awl Patch" we mainly see the B scale used on the soft stuff. You lose a little resolution using a diamond penetrator and 150 kg weight on soft material. We usually only use Brinell on broken parts (cranks, con rods, piston rods, liners etc... ) when we are analyzing a failure.

 

[Floor It]

I called Aeromotive awhile back and they told me that their pump was not rated for diesel fuel.

 

[Johnny5]

Could it have been the Durometer scale, but I only have heard that used for rubber hardness.



Rc is generally used by us when talking about heat treat specs and Brinnel (bhn) when looking in the handbooks for machining speeds.