Frantz fuel filter flow test

[Gary - K7GLD]

After the interest in the Frantz toilet paper bypass oil filters, some interest and questions arose over the use of the similar Frantz fuel filters. I obtained one of the fuel filters, and decided to do a flow test to see if enough fuel flow was possible thru the filter using the stock lift pump - fortunately, I have a spare LP, so the test was relatively easy to accomplish. I also have a mechanical fuel pressure guage, a suitable 12 volt battery, and a charger to maintain proper voltage to the LP during testing. Here's the main players in this test - the LP, Frantz filter, and my guage:

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Using a 5 gallon can of diesel fuel as my source, I connected all the goodies together, initially simply drawing fuel from that can at floor level, then thru the pump, then the filter, then back to the can - my pressure guage was T'd at the outlet of the LP, between it and the filter. First thing, was checking for proper voltage, measured right at the pump power connector:

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YUP - enough voltage!



Next was to clamp off the output of the LP to verify it was putting out proper PSI:

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YUP, could get 15-16 PSI, depending on how well I could cut flow off. Next, I needed to baseline all the hoses and the EMPTY filter canister to see how much restriction they placed on the flow by themselves - the fittiings and hoses supplied in the Frantz are all 3/8 stuff - here's what the guage showed in that setup:

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HMMMmm - just under 1 PSI...



OK, now install a new TP element, and let's see what we get...

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HMmmmm - OK - just under 9 PSI - but what flow do we now have? WELL, I made several test runs filling a 1 gallon jug, and ran a consistent 45 seconds per gallon - that translates to roughly 80 GPH with the LP as used in a 24 valve engine...



SO, where does that leave us? GEE, *I* dunno - our 24 valve VP-44 injector pumps will require a MAXIMUM flow of about 45 GPH - but the unknown is, what will the Frantz setup deliver once connected to the somewhat more restrictive stock lines and fittings on our trucks - and then the restriction of the remaining stock fuel filter? After all, this Frantz isn't suggested to REPLACE the stock filter - only as an added level of filtration over and above what the stocker is capable of. It's suggested that the Frantz fuel filter be installed between the stock LP and the existing fuel filter.



I seriouly doubt many of us would see the same 80 GPH capability in a typical stock installation - then throw in a few miles and some cruddy fuel - then what? In my case, with an added pusher and about 22 PSI to start with, I'm probably safe - but that's just me...



Maybe a little discussion and speculation is in order? What PSI and flow rates are used/needed in the other systems used in these trucks? I see this setup as marginal in a stock full-flow arrangement in the 24 valve trucks, even less than margunal on moderate mods like a Comp box and/or injectors - what about the others?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

After some additional thought, I figure that if I can come up with a good mounting location, I'll go ahead and install it in the suggested manner between the LP and stock filter, and see how it affects my overall system PSI...

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Interesting test Gary Kinda hard to really determine what the fuel pressure would be without knowing what amount of restriction the VP-44 presents to the system, which of course varies with engine load.



I would be concerned with how well the filter does in cold weather, knowing that there is a significant pressure drop across the stock element due to viscous fuel which would likely be worse through a roll of TP.



Vaughn

 

[Chipstien]

What about two in parralle. "If" I was looking to use these for fuel, that is what I would do. Also, it seems to me that if you were to use the Frantz for fuel then you would be able to take out the stock element and run with the canister empty.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Vaughn, I would think that by the time fuel has already been run thru the lift pump, it SHOULD be warmed enough to not be a problem thru the Frantz. As to my concerns on TP restriction in my "test" - I may be over-anxious and gunshy - 80 GPH *is* pretty decent flow rate. BUT, I'll have more info after getting it properly installed and a few miles on it. I'm not sure what flow/pressures are seen in the P7100 and older trucks, or the 3rd generation stuff - it's the additional bypass flow the VP-44 needs for proper cooling that makes me want to be dern certain that the need is met at all times outta respect for the replacement cost of a new VP-44...



I'll be posting more here as I obtain more info on the filter - but 1/10 micron filtration capability sure appeals to me where the VP-44 is concerned!

 

[DHayden]

Thanks Gary for doing the legwork on this. I wonder how the Airdog will help push it along? 2 canisters with the airdog would be nice I think but a little spendy.

 

[John - K5AWO]

Gary,

If we kept 12-17 psi or more at the inlet to the VP44, would that not satisfy the volume/flow rate needed for cooling?

While on this subject, what is the max pressure allowable to the VP44? At what point does it become a detriment rather than a help?



I'm into alternative diesel fuels but very concerned with filtration capability. I definitely am not into ruining a perfectly good VP44 by introducing contamination to it.



John

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

John, keeping decent PSI right into the VP-44 is what it's all about - I have an added Carter pusher pump back by my main fuel tank, and with it installed can see 22+ PSI at idle, 20 at cruise, and never lower than about 16 at full load up steep grades towing our 5er, with the Comp on max at 5x5. It will be interesting to see what happens to pressure after the Frantz is installed - and I can easily disable the pusher to see what the stock LP is capable of on it's own - I have a bypass arrangement around my added pusher that permits nearly full flow even if that pump fails...



There are mixed thoughts on maximum PSI to the VP-44 - there are a few that have run as high as 50 PSI with no problems - but I don't know for how long. Many of us with pusher pumps run above 20 PSI with no apparent problems - my stock pump by itself runs 16 PSI right into the VP-44...



It's been researched and reported by Bosch that on their own testing in the state of California *80%* of stations tested were BELOW Bosch's standard requirement for use in the VP-44 - and that was a recent test! While most of their concerns were related to low lubricity, other contamination is pretty common as well. Read it here:



http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/meeting/2003/022003bosch.pdf



For sure, added filtering is a GOOD thing for the VP-44!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK - prior to installing the new Frantz fuel filter - I wanted to get a baseline reading on my setup using ONLY the stock LP - keep in mind that other than an added Carter pusher pump, my fuel system is totally stock. Here was my PSI at idle, with the pusher switched off:



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About what it should be, around 16 PSI - it read 14 at cruising speed, and would drop to 10 or lower under load.



So next I needed to figure where to mount the filter - it was going to install between the stock LP and stock filter -- so using the driver's side battery looked good:



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Now I needed to make up a mounting bracket:



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This was made to allow the battery hold-down bolt to pass thru the stainless 3/8 tubing, and mount the new filter off to the side towards the front of the truck to avoid the major wires coming off the positive terminal of the battery. Here's the backside, showing the foam rubber weatherstripping at each side of the bracket to hold it securely against the battery case:



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And here's the final pic, showing the filter in place:



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SOOooo, how does it work?



Well, PSI dropped about 2 lbs at idle, to about 14 PSI, it cruised at 12 PSI, and easily dropped well under 10 PSI rowing thru the gears briskly unloaded. My Comp was set at 1x3 - pretty low - and I have little doubt that towing a heavy load up a grade would pretty well bury the guage near zero PSI.



I restarted my Carter pusher, idle PSI was also down about 2 lbs to 21 or so, but with 2 pumps inline, regulation and volume thru the Frantz was much better - cruise was at 18 PSI, hard to force pressure to drop below 15 under all the same circumstances as the first test.



I'll have to stand by my earlier thought that the Frantz fuel filter, installed on a totally stock truck used heavily is likely to be marginal - upgrade to a pusher or one of the alternative setups, and/or larger lines and fittings, and MAYBE the stock setup could handle it.



In any case, I have no doubt it will deliver superior filtering on my truck, and will keep it as it is...



FINIS!

 

[bpenrod]

If only i was handy enough to make brakets like you! Looks like a nice install and good info on pressures.

 

[Ralph Wood]

Originally posted by Chipstien

What about two in parralle. "If" I was looking to use these for fuel, that is what I would do. Also, it seems to me that if you were to use the Frantz for fuel then you would be able to take out the stock element and run with the canister empty.

The very best fuel filter for gasoline or diesel fuel is the Motor Guard of California. The weakness of bathroom tissue filters is leakage around the core. Motor Guard solved that almost 40 years ago. They compress the element and seal it at both ends. I set up the Motor Guards to use bathroom tissue but they also can be set up for the special high wet strength Motor Guard element model M-723 that you can get from Motor Guard at Manteca, CA or www.mcmaster.com catalog #9841K93. The element paper is similar to coffee filter paper in a roll. It is rated at 1/10th of one micron but it is a little less restrictive than bathroom tissue. The housing has 1/4" ports which are less restrictive and stronger than the 1/8" ports fittings. The modification I make to the housing is that I turn the internal parts of Nylatron instead of the stock internal parts that are polypropylene.

I had some problems on a marine engine in Canada with the Buna-N gasket swelling so I use a Viton O-Ring now. Another advantage of the Motor Guard is it can handle vacuum so it can be used as a primary filter. The problem I have is I am ignorant about the requirements of the new Dodge Cummins. This week I am putting filters in a Cummins 12 valve on a water pump. It has no lift pump and is fed by an above ground tank by gravity. It has 1/2" pipe feeding it so I will use the M-60 instead of the M-30. The lube oil filter will be a M-30 fed by a Perma-Cool sandwich adapter.

One of the members has a new Dodge Cummins coming. I have already pulled the fuel and lube oil filters off his 6. 0 Ford Powerstroke. I think I will be installing a dual remote filter system on the automatic transmission. The fuel filters work very well on the Powerestrokes because they have a very good fuel pump. I have installed the filters several ways on the Powerstrokes but have settled on between the tank and the electric pump to keep the stock filters clean and protect the lift pump.



Ralph

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Ralph, I suspect you will find the same issues as I did where the 24 valve engines are concerned - it can be VERY difficult to get the high degree of filtering we're looking for, and at the same time get adequate flow of fuel to the VP-44 on anything close to a stock fuel delivery setup - the 2 goals are diametrically opposed to each other!



This is not an issue with bypass oil filtration, since a high rate of flow is not an issue, high filtration is! But things are different where a full-flow *fuel* system seeking extremely high filtration rates is concerned.



The VP-44 absolutely MUST HAVE adequate flow rates to not only feed the engine, but also to cool and lube the pump - to do that requires the ability to flow approximately 45 GPH at even the HIGHEST loads placed upon the engine - and at inlet PSI to the VP-44 at something close to 10 lbs. or so (my guesstimate... ).



Try to do it with LESS, and you will leave yourself open to pump failures, unhappy customers - and possible expensive liability issues...



I can't speak as to other injector pumps and fuel delivery setups - but that's the way I see it with trucks like mine. Mine will work fine because I have added a pusher pump to my fuel delivery system that provides the needed additional fuel pressure and flow needed to overcome the restriction of the Frantz - and is what *I* consider the absolute MINIMUM needed for use with filters like these.



"The weakness of bathroom tissue filters is leakage around the core. "



Frantz seems to have effectively addressed that issue on their filters by going to a larger diameter center post that provides a tight fit to the TP core, which then is increased as internal pressure in operation eliminates any remaining leakage path. On my older oil unit, it was easy enough to simply place a couple of neoprene O-rings around the center post to provide a snug fit - operational pressure then completed the seal to the point you could easily see the indentations inside the core on used filters where firm contact had been established.



Good luck with your setup.

 

[Chipstien]

Just a thought, not sure if it will work though. Could you put the TP filter on the return line to the tank. Would work like a bypass setup and would not be disrupting flow "to" the filter. Question is would the obstruction "from" the filter cause a problem.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I had thougt about that as well - but it would have been such virgin territory, and so many unknowns, I didn't want to chance it...



I *had* given more thought to running a cooler in the return line though - less invasive...

 

[John - K5AWO]

Gary,



What brand is that good looking fuel pressure gauge on your dash? Exactly what I am looking for. Appears to be electric too, right?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

That's a Westach, from Geno's Garage - electric, and works very well. The combo EGT/boost guage above it is also Westach, and like the fuel pressure guage, has been flawless - they come with colored sleeves for the illuminating bulbs, and the green ones are a perfect match for the instrument panel lights in night driving.

 

[Midnite]

Gary--when it comes time to change out that fuel filter, can you post a picture of it? I'd love to see how gunky it looks!



Mike

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Gary--when it comes time to change out that fuel filter, can you post a picture of it? I'd love to see how gunky it looks!"



You bet, I'm very curious about that myself - will probably do the first change a bit early, in about 2000 miles when I swap out the TP cartridge in the Frantz oil filter - I will be sending a sample of the oil for analysis as part of an extended oil drain test - I hope I'm well enough thru the engine break-in to start getting settled wear readings...

 

[Ralph Wood]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

I had thougt about that as well - but it would have been such virgin territory, and so many unknowns, I didn't want to chance it...



I *had* given more thought to running a cooler in the return line though - less invasive...

I have most of the equipment at work converted to Motor Guards. About 10 years ago I had an air cooled diesel engine that was giving me a lot of trouble. It would loose prime in between runs. I hung a Frantz upside down and installed an electric fuel pump off a 84 Oldsmobile Diesel V6. It worked like a champ except no one remembered to turn off the switch. It had clear plastic lines including the teturn line. When I quit seeing air bubbles I hit the air starter.

I got the Motor Guard M-30 installed on the Cummins 6BTA-6 this week but didn't get the M-60 installed on the fuel. I have to be very careful with the fuel filter. The engine cannot shut down because of a clugged filter. It is a fire fighting pump. It has to be certified to be in excellent working order. Here in the Dallas area TP filters can handle a lot more than the engine needs. As far as how they perform at 30 below with water suspended in the fuel I don't know. The TP filters can handle 1 GPM with a marginal pump. I have the owners manual on the 12 valve at work. It doesn't need 1 GPM.



Ralph

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I wonder what the fuel PSI and flow minimum rating is for the VE, P7100 and the new common-rail stuff?