freakin brakes 2

[jlast]

This is following freakn brakes here



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74486



I am going through these damn brakes again!!!!!!

about 9 months, 5,000 miles, three rear brake adjustments, and again I have not a good pedal.



NO lights of any sort, i stop reasonably well, but pedal travels all the way to within 2" or so of floor, if i push harder the pedal will go all the way to the floor. everytime before if i felt pedal travel was too much i adjusted the rear brakes, but this last time it did not have any effect of the pedal travel. pedal has just a hint of possibly not being there when you need it most.



I decided i was sick of trying to decide if it was the abs do hickie, so i made a stopper to go in with the spring to not allow that side to move at all. NO help.



pinched off lines, pedal still fell, ok master.



New master bled out perfect, bleed lines no air, brakes are worse then ever! ABS thing is still plugged and i still have not a good pedal.



Suggestions? any dodge recall, update or upgrade on these brakes.



What about if the prop valve/combination valve? dont know if they can become a problem?



no leaks, no balloning lines, all looks good.



anyone change masters to a bigger bore unit, or different setup, etc... . just seeing this master is 1 1/8 where chevy on basically same axles is 1 5/16 1 tons, or 3/4 ton is 1 1/4 on different axles.



done more brakes on this truck in the yr and half i owned it, then i have done on over 20 yrs on 5 other vehicles combined. First dodge i have owned, these brakes are giving it a bad name.

 

[Paychk]

Jlast



What type of master cylinder did you install, were they all rebuilds or actual new from a name brand such as Raybestos or Wagner?

 

[jlast]

Yep bled everything, up to 4 1/2 hrs on this master and bleedy bleedy and such, today. Going back out for about 2 hrs more, think its time to check the master again.



Type of master, well these last two the one that was good for 9 months have been rebuilds. THE over five other masters i went through in about 2 weeks last time i did this was mixed between all, i believe it was 2 rays, and 1 wag, then two other rebuilds, and this rebuild is the only one that held. Proving it doesnt currently matter (IMO) what brand or type, it just likes junking masters period, or i got a mixed batch of crappy masters period.



Anyone ever have to pull front calipers off to tip the bleeders upright? did this help?



Just thinking of different ideas.

 

[BCook1]

I hope this is not your problem.

In many cases, the calipers are right and left yet they can be installed on either side. The only difference is that the bleed screw will point down. I did this by mistake one time and THEY WILL NOT BLEED. I don't know if they can be reversed on our trucks but... . The bleed screw must point up.

 

[jlast]

nope they are on the correct sides, but noticed that the bleeders are kind of hort rather then vert, but are located very close to the top.

 

[BCook1]

OK how about

Incorrectly packaged pads - not deep enough

Out of tolerance drums

Sticking e brake cables - messing with adjustability

booster filled with brake fluid



Does the truck stop - brakes actually work but pedal seems soft, or is stopping something you have to plan ahead for?

 

[BCook1]

And

Maybe someone else would know on this - I see you have a 350. Some of the dually GMs had a load sensing brake proportioner that was problematic. When loaded, it increased the braking to the rear. This is pre abs stuff designed to prevent rear wheel lock up when empty. Does your truck have anything like this? A friends GM always lost brakes when backing up - never did figure it out and he is a professional mechanic.

 

[dpuckett]

How are you bench bleeding the master, and how are you bleeding the lines? I have found that the plastic plugs do a much better job bench bleeding than the ports with the little lines into the top of the master. ALso, you need a buddy to pump the pedal when bleeding lines. Hook up about 4' of clear vinyl hose to the bleeder, then have him/ her pump the pedal. TUrn the bleder, and let the fluid flow out. Close bleeder, repeat, til you have no air.

I went through a half dozen master cylinders in my W250- pedal never felt right, but it did stop consistently- 2/3 to the floor. Traded it for the D350 I have now; guy thought the brakes were just fine. In the one I have now, I took the ABS valve module do hickey apart, and stretched the spring, cleaned it up, reinstalled, and have had no problem, though the brakes are only about 90%. Pads are wearing, though, and it needs calipers. Seems like i need to bleed it every two weeks or so. I have some Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid in the toolbox, waiting for a sunny day and an assistant. (got that lined out, too, just have to get her over when Mom isnt home ) Good luck. You'd think something as strightforward as brakes/ hydraulics wouldnt cause THIS much headache.



Daniel

 

[jlast]

pads, rotors, shoes, all new as of 5,000 miles or the last time i did this.



too worn drums, well truck only has 51,000 miles and the believe to be original shoes were taken off by me last time i went through all of this brake mess and still had 1/2 meat, i would think they would be pretty dang close to new, but could check. Never licensed for street until i bought it.



about two days ago i went through the rear brakes, adjusted emergency, had to enlarge holes in aftermarket shoes as they would not allow proper engagement on the nonself-adjusters(HA HA). E brake was a touch to tight, from last time i did all this brake stuff.



I am familiar with different load prop valves on other vehicles this does not have anything like that on it.



booster filled with fluid, interesting very interesting. That would be a interesting question. I have heard, never had one do it, but never checked this one yet.



brakes work/worked well, no pump needed. pedal would travel to just about even or so from the gas pedal, but it gave a unsure pedal feel like spongy, if i increased my force it would go to the floor. It was like one time i was going to step on it, it wasnt going to work. When i had everything working right and great pedal feel it was only about 1/2 a pedal and stopped no sink to the floor stuff.



bleed every two weeks? well if calipers arent stuck or leaking like crazy not the calipers. Wont suck air in.



brake headache, well i figure i lost about 5 yrs off my life just in amount of brake dust, and absorption of brake fluid by my body just by working on this one truck.



not to mention the somewhere in the neighbor hood of 11 days i have lost do to me doing these brakes, and on day 2 of this last session of brake enjoyment.



i would have done better building a brake system for this truck if i known in the beginning that this thing was going to be this much trouble.

 

[JLEONARD]

I still have to say that I am still leaning toward a bad master cylinder.

Did you say you put on a NEW Wagner master cylinder? That wasn't clear to me.

I don't use rebuilds any more... I've had some bad ones and it drives me nuts trying to figure why the system won't bleed out.

Get a good new one and suddenly the problem is fixed.

Jay

 

[1stgen4evr]

brakes

I have had such overall good result with my truck that I may not be qualified to comment on this question. I have replaced one booster/master cylinder. Came from NAPA. It leaked from the rear of the master cylinder. Changed it out. Everything is working now. Some attention as to the condition of the parts you are taking off should give a hint as to whether you are zeroing in on the problem. And didn't I see a question a while back as to something breaking on the pedal quadrant. Are you pushing the mastercylinder full travel with the pedal.



I really feel for anyone who is whacking their brains on a problem that won't go away. I have certainly done that before.



I remember when the dual master cylinders came out. Lots of shops gave up on trying to rebuild them. Just go with new.



1stgen4evr

James

 

[cerberusiam]

If you can get the brake pedal more than half way to floor or anywhere close to the level of the accelerator pedal there is a problem with the pedal adjustment or master cylinder or a massive leak in the brake system. Even with the rear brakes set loose and worn drums mine would put you into the windshield at the halfway point. I can't get enough leverage to get past the halfway point empty or loaded.



The proprtioning valve would cause ineffective braking if it was messed up but the pedal would feel good, at least thats what I have run into. I would guess either the master cylinder is not holding the needed pressure and is bleeding by inside or it is not putting out enough volume to fill the system.



Given the absence of large amounts of leaking fluid either on the ground or all over the underside of the vehicle it would seem the master cylinder is the problem. Possibly the wrong flow for the brake system? Misadjusted rod from pedal to master cylinder? Just a small note on rod adjustment, SMALL adjustments. Good luck.

 

[Paychk]

Jlast



When you bleed the brakes, what order did you follow?



It should go like this; 1) ABS valve on frame, 2) rear pass drum 3) rear drv drum 4) front pass caliper 5) front drv caliper



and you might want to try power bleed with something similar to this:



http://www.motiveproducts.com/ordernow_bleeders.htm

 

[DF5152]

brake pedal height and pedal feel will have to do with lining thickness, pad thickness rotor and drum thinkness. what you are explaining sound like a bad master to me also. not sure what your master looks like but you should always bench bleed a master before putting it on the truck also depending on the design of the master it may trap air in the end. When u bleed your master or brake try not to push the pedal to the floor sometimes it will cause the seels in the master to tear and leak. take 4 C clamps and clamp the calipers and plungers in the wheel cylinders and then press the pedal if you can move the pedal you either have air in the lines still or a bad master as long as you dont have any leaks. Fliuds cannot be compress gases(air) can. If you master is leaking out the rear into your booster you will see fluid on the bottom of the booster behind the master. sometime it is also easier to blled the brake with the truck running since you can supply more force with the assistance of the booster.

Dan

 

[jlast]

Just to bring this up to date, clamped rubber lines and the master holds, first one did not. Pedal did not move from where

it was when i originally started this mess. three days of work for the same exact pedal travel, POS. Still entertaining ideas, and throwing them around, but i need my truck so i can drive them for now like they are.



Has anyone had the dump vavle in the abs crap stick open all the time? just got me wondering. But still no lights of any sort, yes its all hooked up still. I did plug the accumulator.



power bleeding is being looked at, but this will be the first i have ever even thought of using it. Very interesting stuff over on that website, i like it.

 

[DF5152]

are you saying if u clamp the 2 rubber brake lines to the calipers the pedal will NOT sink to the floor or it still does?

 

[jlast]

clamped lines going from frame to each axle, and pedal did not fall.

 

[DF5152]

that tells me there is either air on the other side of the clamps or leaks

 

[MMiller]

If and when you get the brakes to work fine, I adjust the screw on the front of the booster to the master cylinder to get the pedal up high. You need to be careful, too much adjustment will cause the brakes to be on all the time. My brakes come on with just a little pedal movement. Adjust the screw out or longer to bring the pedal up where the brakes come on. Could it just be you are having to take up the slack in between the booster and cylinder to get the brakes to come on?



Michael

 

[prototech]

Hey jlast,

I picked up a vacuum bleeder kit at my local auto parts store for about $45, it works great and you can bleed the brakes by yourself! It came with a bunch of usefull fittings and is handy for may other things also. I use mine alot.

Proto