Front Brake Questions.

[RamAZ]

I will change the front brakes on my 92 sometime this month. Is anyone running the front brake system by EGR. From what I've read they are suppose to be good but pricy. The number one factor is safety because I haul a camper that weighs in at 2600#'s+ when loaded.



The next choice would be NAPA parts because of the availability throughout the western states. They have loaded calipers for heavy duty service but no slotted or drilled rotors.



Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.



Jim

 

[Philip]

Drilled and sloted have a place. But IMHO they do not belong on a street setup.



Drilling and slotting removes material in the brake service where it is need most. I prefer max area for pad contact.



I have had a few occasions to come down from a high rate of speed to almost a stop. I have no complaints with stock rotors and pads. I buy most of my brake parts from NAPA.



2600 pounds is not a load. LOL

 

[JLEONARD]

I replaced my fronts with loaded calipers from Napa 2 years and 25 k ago.

So far so good.

Jay

 

[DPKetchum]

I too used loaded calipers from NAPA. Used Napa rear brakes,wheel cyls. etc. Had to order all new rear brake hardware also. Prices were great. I pull 9600lbs. With trailer brakes in good order stopping has never been a issue.

 

[MikeO]

Calipers and rotors

Burning through over $1500 of brakes a year teaches you a few things. First off, let me say that I am not burning through them in the Dodge... I race an Audi that eats brakes faster than I eat hamburgers. It may not sound feasible, but I can burn through a set of $100 brake pads in less than 80 minutes of track time... so I've learned a few things about brakes in general.



Brakes are simple, they convert kinetic energy to heat... that's it. The more kinetic energy (mass + velocity) and the more heat that is going to be generated. I generate about 1400F of heat in my front rotors by continually hauling my car down from 140 to 30 at Poonos International (I use temperature paint). That is a little extreme, but I have huge rotors, Porsche calipers and race tires which stick like glue. I could never generate that kind of heat on street tires because of the ABS.



There are six critical components to a brake system:

1. Rotors
   
2. Brake Pads
   
3. Calipers
   
4. Brake Lines
   
5. Brake Fluid
   
6. Air Flow
   
   [/list=1]
   
   
   
   Rotors - The more mass, the better. It's a little more complicated than that, but the rotor is nothing more than a heat sink. The more mass, the more heat it can absorb, the more effective the brakes are. Air flow (helping to dissipate that heat) has an effect but I'll discuss that later. When we overheat a rotor, it can warp. Cryogenically treating a rotor (not all that expensive) can add years to a rotor's life because the rotor is hardened and then quenched in liquid nitrogen (or some other liquid). The end result is a rotor that is harder and has a uniform denseness to the metal throughout the rotor. I had a real problem with warping (and something else called checking) before I started getting the rotors cryo treated. I have not had the same problems and get two times the life out of a rotor. I would advise everyone here to stay away from drilled rotors. The only "drilled" rotor that is any good is from Porsche (made by Brembo) because the holes are cast into the rotor. Gas slotting, on the other hand, should be used on ALL rotors in my opinion. When the pad heats up early in it's life cycle (even after a pad is bedded in) there is a tremendous amount of "gassing out" that occurs. That gassing out heats the pad further and can lead to pad deposition on the rotor (always mistaken for a warped rotor). Slots allow for an escape route for the gas and, in some cases, melted pad material. Oh yeah, the bigger the better. The larger the diameter, the more mass, the larger the swept area per revolution, the more braking leverage it has (simple physics).
   
   
   
   Brake Pads - Too many people think they "boiled the fluid" when all they did was melt the pad. Each pad material has a coefficient of friction and temperature range. The higher the CF and Temp Range, the better... . to a point. Every pad has a minimum operating temp. If I take my track pads onto the street, the first time I step on the brake, there will be NOTHING there. No brakes. Those specific pads (Kerr Race) need 300F of heat before they even start working. Not good for the street. Some of the best dual performance pads I have seen are from Performance Friction. Another great pad manufacturer is Hawk. I drive around every day with Hawk Blues in my street car and while they are dusty, they grab like hell. I may start inquiring to different pad manufacturers to get the CF and temp ranges of different pads to interpret that for everyone here.
   
   
   
   Calipers - It's all about piston surface area. My little Porsche calipers with four small pistons, have far more piston surface area than the Dodge. I don't like single piston calipers. I really wish someone made an adapter so I could bolt up some Porsche Boxster calipers to the Dodge. These calipers allow for pad changes from the top where you pull one pin and the pads pop out from the top. Maybe I should look into fabricating something if it doesn't exist.
   
   
   
   Brake Lines - While I haven't changed over to stainless lines on the Dodge, all of my other cars have stainless lines on them. The brake feel is 1000% better with stainless lines and I like the safety that is provided by the lines. Watch out for non-DOT approved and non sheathed stainless lines for the street. The main difference with DOT approved lines is there are non-kink plastic collars on the ends. Do not even think about using a non sheathed stainless line on the street.
   
   
   
   Brake Fluid - Again, most people who think they boiled the fluid acutally just got the pad to melt. Use DOT 4 fluid and you shouldn't have a problem. I use Valvoline SynPower fluid and in four years of track use with brake temps to 1400F I have never boiled the fluid.
   
   
   
   Air Flow - Forcing air to the hub is the best way to help a rotor dissipate heat. I don't think my Dodge rotors have even seen 1000F but if they do from towing or some other extreme activity, a simple ir scoop and dryer hose directed to the hub will not only help cool the rotor but cool the hub at the same time saving your bearings.
   
   
   
   I encourage everyone to add your $0. 02 to this discussion. We spend so much time talking about making more power that we seem to overlook keeping that power in control and bringing things back down to a stop.
   
   
   
   Mike O.

 

[JStoll]

very well typed mike

I might also add that one of the leading causes of rotor warpage is un even torque weather the rotor sits inboard(in which case be careful when pulling the studs through for even torque) of the wheel flange but especially if it is held in place by the wheel outside the flange (torque the wheels) & on duelys that the bolts/nuts that hold the rotor to the hub are evenly torqued some rotors are more suseptable than others to uneven torque

I currently drive an overloaded 73 GMC service truck 8500 LBS as it sits & live in the mountains after allot of trial & error Ive found raybestos super stop to be the best pad there is for our type of application they last & stop very well & are also rarely noisy Im not sure but I think napa pads are bendix which are also great

on pad installation the leading cause of noise is caused by metal to metal contact by the pad backing with the caliper/pad holder I use 3M silicone paste to lube all slides I pins as well as the back & sides of the pad backing it has a very high boiling point doesn't evaporate & is rubber friendly. when squeezing the piston back into the caliper open the bleeder & put a hose on the nipple so you push the nasty fluid out & replace it in the master with fresh clean fluid I cant stress this enough especially on ABS systems & when the fluid hasn't been serviced regularly most of the particulates either find their way down to the caliper or are formed there due to the changes in temp & moisture factor if you push this crud back up into the master cyl it can cause pre mature failure

on brake fluid brake fluid is I believe the word is hydroscopic which means absorbs moisture from the atmosphere this moisture oxidizes the bores of all the hydraulic components creating particulate matter which grinds up the seals so what I do is use a turkey baster & suck out the master than fill it with clean & bleed the whole system till I get clean out to all 4 corners

if its brown dump it dudes

well thats my 2 cents

take care

JAK

 

[scramblin]

Good info.

 

[Wayno]

I did a brake job on the front of my truck a while back and I replace everything . I got new Raybestos pads and rotors ( made in the U. S. A. ) and new calipers and replace the rubber brake hoses . It stop great until it started to rain one day and it was like driving a truck with drum brakes all the way around just after you been in high water . It didn't do this before and I had a set of pads that I had got from NAPA , the ones that are in the green and white box I think they are call True Stop or True Test . I told the independent parts store in town what was going on every time it rain so we decided to try a set of Bendix pads and the same thing would happen , stop great as long as it didn't rain . So I said the heck with this I went back to NAPA and got another set of their pads like I had before ( I kept the old box the NAPA pads came in so I knew what I had ) and the truck stops find in all weather . Oh and I have always had the dust shields , back-en plates or what ever you want to call them always in place where they belong . When I was trying to figure out what was wrong everybody would say "you got those back-en plates on"

 

[daveshoe]

My factory setup on 4 wheel disc stop fine wet or dry but in the recent fine wind driven snow were off at least 75 percent of normal power. Sound familiar to anyone?

 

[JStoll]

wayno thats odd on the pad problem I dont know what to say I have personaly used & installed both on customers cars for the last 7 years or so & not had a complaint yet but like a mechanic if you find one you like stick with it keep in mind that I like these for domestic cars & trucks & some japanese but OE pads are good too & are about the same as the superstops which I believe are the top of the line raybestos all though there may be an ultrastop? Im not sure on that, PBR metalmasters are what I run on my saab they are super noisy but stop VERRY well none the less a good thing to look out for is porosity in a pad if you look at the surface & its verry porus they may be problematic & if your porch colapses & more than 3 dogs are killed you might be a redneck

have fun

JAK

 

[Hutchew]

My .02.....

I have an '02 Ford F350, originally equipped with the absolute best brakes on any truck I have ever driven (or had to STOP). At 25,000 miles, I had my mechanic replace the front brakes. He installed NAPA metallic (not semi-metallic) super heavy duty pads. They suck! Noisy, sounds like metal to metal (maybe they are?) and squeal like a stuck pig. And this truck no longer stops near as well as before with regular factory pads.

He put the same pads on the front of my wife's '02 F150 Supercrew, and she took it back and made him change them for the same reasons... ... ... ... ... .

I'll never do it again... ... ... ... .

 

[JStoll]

yeh the more metal in the pad the more likley to squeal but work better hot the metal masters I mentioned on the saab have allot of metal & are noisy in my mind its a trade off some are willing to make OE pads are oftern soft to be quiet & grippy

I worked for ford as a technician & liked there pads allot but boy those trucks seemed to warp allot opf rotors

take care

JAK

 

[DPKetchum]

Over the years I've tried aftermarket brake pads(mainly NAPA/Rebestos)and always within a few thousand miles ended up taking them off and throwing them in trash and spending twice as much on factory pads. The exception was the loaded pad/caliper set on my 1993 w250. In the Nissan,G. M. and Chrysler dealer i have worked at we took off numerous aftermarket pads that squeaked badly,sounded metal to metal or were cracked/busted loose from the pad plate. On all of these autos I've had numerous customers weekly come in and say CAN you please make this stop and when stopping sound like it was NEW. Recently just purchased a set of factory Mopar pads for my 1998 Dodge 1500 slt. Over the years also mainly light duty autos and autos with smooth ride have ORDERED factory new SHOCKS and removed new aftermarket to get auto to RIDE like it did when new. Have had customers say I don't care if they aren't warranty or last a lifetime,I cant take feeling every crack in the interstate and the hollow kawomp sound on slight uneven roads. Just my two cents worth. Rotors also need to be SWIRLED(cross hatched)after truing to get could brake performance.

 

[DPKetchum]

While i'm on a roll! A couple times a year at the Nissan store we got racers running at Road Atlanta coming in and once while i was at the parts counter overheard two of them buying every 300Zx turbo and 200sx turbo brake pads(frt&rear)we had in stock. I inquired as of Why etc. Said they forgot to pick them up in their home town and in past had used differant aftermarket pads for racing/street etc. and found they got same number of laps/races etc and equal performance in their class's from factory pads and rotor life was was greatly extended. On nonfactory pads said had to replace all rotors as quick as they replaced pads.

 

[Case500D]

Loaded calipers

Hey, could one of y'all educate me on the "loaded" front calipers for our trucks? Thanks.



Jeremy

 

[JLEONARD]

"loaded calipers" are a kit if you will that has calipers (either new or rebuilt) and brake pads together as one package.

Take them out of the box, and install as an assembly.

Jay

 

[JStoll]

loaded means comes with pads & usualy all the hardware nesessary IE: antirattle clips & mounting hardware

on the pads OE are good on sertain problem vehicles I buy OE & have good results also working for ford I loved there pads Im new to the dodge scene & will try a set when I wipe out the ones on the truck I bought just remember what I recomended in aftermarket were the raybestos superstop & I think they have an ultrastop these are the top of the line pad which for a long time were the only pad to pass a fairly high standard of testing(forgot the name)

Im not trying to push these just trying to be clear on what Im recomending the lower grade pads are crap mostly I agree

take care

JAK

 

[glhs]

Although a different vehicle (Dodge Shelbly GLHS) I've noticed the same results as wayno with the Raybestos super stops and PG/plus. Not impressed. The Hawk blue pads are VERY good as Mike o has stated. I'm still on my original pads w/the truck (104,000) but have tried Autozones Performance Frictions on other vehichles and they seem to be a pretty good pad for the money. My . 02

 

[MMiller]

At 140,000 Miles I started having brake problems on mine, it pulled to one side. I put on new front pads from a parts store, old ones were not bad. in the end I found my calipers hang up but, back to the pads. After switching from stock that were still good, to aftermarket I got alot more brake noise, ALOT more brake dust on my WHEELS, and poorer braking. I bit the bullit and went back to the stealer and got the OEM pads, not the cheaper wagners or whatever, the DODGE OEM pads, and breaking was back to normal, the pads are wearing awesome and NO MORE break dust on the wheels. Just my observations, and my opinion.

 

[dan brooks]

I just installed new front brakes on Friday. I had to replace both rotors - bought the good Raybestos ones, $99 each, not the offshore junk - and used the Raybestos PG Plus semi-metallic pads (I sure wish the previous owner knew how to use his trailer brakes..... I have over $600 in F&R brakes in the past month). So far I'm happy with them - no noise, stop great, etc. I'm leaving for a 3000+ mile trip to Oregon next month, most of it through the mountains of California, so I'll let you know if I'm still satisfied when I get back.



One brand of pads I will be sure to avoid at all costs is the Albany lifetime warranty specials from Auto Zone. My dad, a friend, and I all installed them on four different vehicles, and every one was noisy and felt like it was metal-to-metal. Changing only the pads eliminated the problem, but talk about a PITA tracking it down.



A friend swears by the el-cheapo, non-metallic pads. He says they grip well and have a soft compound so they don't wear the rotors. Of course, you have to replace them more frequently, and I'm sure they won't do as well with the amount of heat generated with the loads that many of us carry or tow.