Front Lockers

[tjpatte]

Just to let people know, you CAN run a locker in the front of your CAD axle. I've had a Detroit Locker in the front of my truck for 18 months and 25,000 miles with no problems. Everyone said I would have all kinds of problems from the steering wheel pulling to front axle/dirveshaft grenadeage. So I talked to Jeff at MIT (they mostly do jeeps) and he said "Well you axle setup is no different from Jeep YJ's and folks been running them for years with no problems so why would you?". So I took his advice and had one installed. Everything is fine and it climbs like a demon.

Thought I'd just shed some light.

Tom Patterson
San Diego

 

[rickhans]

Did your Ram pull to the right when in 4wd and accellerating before the locker, and does it now pull with the locker? My '98. 5 QC pulls to the right only in 4wd and two dealers told me that it is torque steer. Others on the forum have responded the same. My chevy 4wd trucks I have owned over the years always pulled straight in 4wd. What is your experience?

[This message has been edited by Rick Hansen (edited 02-11-2001). ]

 

[HC]

That's good input.
My concerns with front lockers are not that they will destroy anything, but that on some surfaces (like snow or ice) both front tires will spin making it more likely for the front to side-slip and lose directional control. It probably only happens under very specific conditions, but it is a handling characteristic that the driver needs to be aware of, just like we are all aware of our higher center of gravity and take corners at appropriate speeds...
This is by no means a "show stopper", but I do believe it is why you can no longer order front limited slip differentials in factory rigs. (Thanks again, Liability lawsuits) #ad

 

[tjpatte]

My truck hasn't pulled at all either way but if your truck pulled one way or the other I would think that with a locker it would not pull at all since both front tires pull under acceleration. As for the ice and snow conditions I agree it can make handling different with the front wanting to plow. I haven't had the thing in snow yet but plan on installing a Posi-Lok on the front so I can unlock the passenger side axle in the white stuff and offroading if I don't need both fronts pulling. A poor mans ARB #ad

 

[PRout]

Interesting. Maybe even changing to 3. 73's while youre at it. Naaaaaah.

So whats the best combo? Air lockers front & rear? Or detroit?

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2k, 30k miles, QC, SB, 4x, 6sp, 3. 54, 285/75r16 bfg/at, stock air cleaner (reliable), silencer ring "in" (runs better), Sunnybrook 28' fiver, 16,780 lbs. 18mpg (unloaded), 12-14 mpg (loaded). VA, DD1's, PS Boost module & elbow, BD brake... also, Nitrous Oxide piped direct into the block (stealth - to keep the warranty), 10 gallon per minute fuel pump, ECM right out of Don Garlit's Top Fueler (he gave it to me) (for letting him ride in my truck), Super Modified DD1 Injectors ("Hand Honed" with a 1/4" reamer & my 12v Makita). More BOMBING to come. .

 

[HC]

So whats the best combo? Air lockers front & rear? Or detroit?

Functionally, I think air lockers are "the best" because the driver has control. For rock crawling, or mud, probably both systems are equal, but the air locker can be left "open" when on snowy roads, etc. Many would consider this a safety feature; but others may scoff as to the significance.
Reliability wise, I think Detroit lockers would get the nod - less complex; either electrical or air system problems can disable the ARB locking system.
$$$ wise, air lockers are up there.

In other words, like so many other things, it depends on which features you weigh most heavily in your personal definition of "the best".

 

[Dave MacArthur]

Thanks for the info. If you have a Detroit locker in the front and are in snow/ice, why not just drive around most of the time in 2 wheel drive and then shift into 4x4 when needed? Wouldn't this be a safe way to drive in the snow? With the locker, do you still have the CAD or did you switch to manual hubs? Can you shift into and out of 4x4 while moving?

Thanks,
Dave.

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99 QC SB 4x4 Auto
Factory Ordered
Most Options

 

[tjpatte]

Yes you could drive in 2wd until needed then shift into 4wd. Its just that I have 4,600 pounds on the front axle and 2,600 on the rear so I'm figuring the rear is not going to have much traction. I've already noticed this in the mud and I'm orginally from Pittsburgh Pa (lots of snow, hills and polished brick roads) and know what pickups are like in the white stuff. I still have the CAD (would love to get hubs like Dave Fritz) and I can switch from 2wd to 4wd on the move.

Tom Patterson

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98. 5 C/C, S/B, 5spd, PM3, Detroit front locker, DT trackbar, Prozap bumper Warn M12000 winch, National Spring front coils, Rancho 9000's, Yokohama M/T's 35", Quickair II compressor

 

[Dave MacArthur]

Tom-
What is the Posi Lok you mentioned above? How does it keep one of the axles unlocked?

Everyone-
What about putting a Detroit Locker in the front and then installing one of those electric over vacuum switches that some people are using to run in 2 wheel low. In other words, you could shift into 4x4 but keep the CAD from connecting. Would it work ok? I know some people have run a cable instead of using the vacuum switch. Seems to me that it would be nice to have the strength and simplicity of the Detroit Locker with the advantages of the Air Locker.

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99 QC SB 4x4 Auto
Factory Ordered
Most Options

 

[Amianthus]

Dave M,
That's a very interesting idea. The only down side of that that I can see is that when you want an 'open' differential, you would only get power to the driver's wheel, not differentiate between the right and left sides. I think that would make it pull to the left all the time. However, I can see a marginal gain in control in the snow by only having one wheel turning as opposed to both. Anyone else have any comments on this idea?

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'99 2500 ISB QC SLT (No Leather!), 4x4, 5sp w/McLeod, 4:10, BD-II, PE, PE-EZ, 4"exh. , Pac-Brake, A-Pillar gauge pod w/boost and pyro, Line-X, V-1, lights, siren, lic. plt. frame says "Diesel Fumes Make Me Horny!", and much more goofy stuff.

 

[tjpatte]

Dave, the Posi-Lok (they have a web site)is a cable actuated replacement to the vaccum motor thats on the axle. So instead of having the vaccum engage the front axle you do it manually with the cable. Works for the 2 low thing as well as for lockers in the front axle (except the drivers side will have power all the time)

Tom

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98. 5 C/C, S/B, 5spd, PM3, Detroit front locker, DT trackbar, Prozap bumper Warn M12000 winch, National Spring front coils, Rancho 9000's, Yokohama M/T's 35", Quickair II compressor

 

[Amianthus]

After talking to a few people about lockers in a CAD front end, I came to the conclusion that it is not a great idea. It can be done. But when the axle is disengaged and no power is being supplied to the front the wheel that is still connected will tend to ratchet and lock unpredictably. This will cause the steering to become more agressive. In a rock or sand rig, no problem. But in a daily driver, not a good idea.
It seems that a selectable locker is the only way to go.

 

[tjpatte]

Not to give you a hard time, but did any of these folks actually have a locker in their Dodge? Lockers only lock when power is provided by the driveshaft. In the case of our axles they are coasting in 2wd and they don't lock at all. In the case of a front end that has a "solid" axle (no CAD) yes they will click while turning but not lock at all (My friend Don who we put a Lock-Right in the front of his TJ does this). Our axles have the passenger side disconnected in 2wd and the short shaft coming from the diff can spin freely without interfering with the passenger side wheel so we don't get the "clicking" due to unequal wheel speed encountered with the solid axle vehicles. I understand your concerns because they are the same ones I had and I finally took a informed (Jeff at MIT) leap of faith and can't be happier. This my buddy said it won't work is the exact reason I made the post that I did except alot of people were saying what you folks did and I had to find out for myself. BTW I did drive the truck from San Diego CA to my home town of Pittsburgh PA and back with no problems.

Hope this helps. If any one has any questions please let me know.

Tom Patterson
San Diego CA



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98. 5 C/C, S/B, 5spd, PM3, Detroit front locker, DT trackbar, Prozap bumper Warn M12000 winch, National Spring front coils, Rancho 9000's, Yokohama M/T's 35", Quickair II compressor

 

[pcorssmit]

I don't think disconnecting the passenger side axle will work. The truck will pull very hard and handling will be unpredictable. I've tried running with one hub locked on my Blazer (with front and rear detroits) for better steering, with pretty poor results. I don't drive this truck on the street in the snow anymore, but I did when it was my daily driver. My advice is to take it easy in 2wd and use 4wd when it gets really bad. As for installing a locker in a front with no hubs or disconnect, I wouldn't do it. When running with my hubs locked in 2wd, the steering is really bad. I've ended up off the trail on accident a couple times due to this. I do know a guy who's had a locker in the front of his 1500 for years and likes it. You may have seen his truck in one of the mags, its a green club cab short box with diamond plate on the lower part of the body.

Pete

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'97 2500 CC 4X4 5spd Sport
'83 K5 Blazer 350 TBI (ex 6. 2), 39. 5 TSLs, 3" lift, Dana 60/GM 14 blt, Detroits

 

[Bad340fish]

One thing VERY nice about the ARB is when your out wheeling and your on nothing but rock you can disconect it to turn. A buddy of mine had a 4 runner that was locked front and rear. We took it down on some limestone in Disney OK and it climbed great but would hardly turn at all. We also had alot of problems making turns on the trails as well. But man could that thing climb!! Would pull out of any situation that we could put it in(including one that resulted in a broken rear side glass and some pretty heavy sheetmetal damage... but it was fun #ad
) And it was very drivable with the hubs locked but in 2wd on the road. Clicked like mad but it drove fine. Good luck with your Ram. . sounds cool

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Clark
1999 2500 QC SB 5spd Flowmaster 3 chamber, K&N Re-0880
1968 Barracuda Formula S Viper Blue 11. 98@112

NHRA member for life

 

[rickhans]

I am a little confused due to the different responses about locked hubs in 2wd. Maybe I am misunderstanding something. My Chevy 4wd's when put in 2wd and backed up totally unlocked the hubs. Once that occurred nothing would turn the front differential therefore steering is normal.

The manual for my Dodge says to back up in 2WD to unlock the hubs. I don't see how the axles could be rotating at all after that action. So what is tjpatte talking about? If you have manual locking Warren hubs you could drive one wheel but not the other, but only in 4WD.

2nd question: I have never had lockers in the front, only in the rear. How does a locker restrict the steering. Is it because when you turn the steering wheel the tires rotate at a different RPM?

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98. 5 24V QC 4x4 SB 3:54 5sp

[This message has been edited by Rick Hansen (edited 02-25-2001). ]

 

[tjpatte]

Hey Rick, your not unlocking hubs when you backup because you don't have hubs on the Dodge, however you are relieving stress on the front axle to allow the CAD to disengage. The Dodge front end basically takes an axle and cuts in half then provides a coupling to connect them when needed. I believe what your thinking of is the Auto hubs (Chevy's and Fords) that engage when you put the transfer case in 4WD and it engages the hubs. The backing action allows the hubs to disengage. If you take a look at your Chevy (if you still have it) you will see a hub on the end of your axle and if you look at the Dodge all you will see is a Big nut and a cotter pin. No hubs in the Dodge #ad


BadFish340, being in southern CA we have a ton of rock and while going forward not really too much of a problem (thank God for power steering), backing up pointing downhill can be a pain. I'm just looking for the cable disconnect for snow stuff, been doing the wheeling thing for over a year and have adapted for the locker (does climb like crazy though #ad
)


BTW think I'm gonna try the Yoko M/T 35's at the TDS Safari at Truckhaven and see how much fender trimming I need!

Take care all.

Tom Patterson
San Diego CA

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98. 5 C/C, S/B, 5spd, PM3, Detroit front locker, DT trackbar, Prozap bumper Warn M12000 winch, National Spring front coils, Rancho 9000's, Yokohama M/T's 35", Quickair II compressor

 

[pcorssmit]

Some body say fender trimming? #ad


#ad


Pete

[This message has been edited by pcorssmit (edited 02-26-2001). ]

 

[David_VT]

I don't consider myself an off road expert, but I do know how scary driving in 2WD with our OEM LS rear can be. (on the white stuff)

I would love an affordable ARB type of solution. I could not even dream of installing some kind of non-ARB type locker in my front axle, expecially if the solution for driving on ICE and SNOW was 'put it in 2WD'.

90% of my driving is on back roads (read that dirt) and in the winter I am in 4WD most all of the time so as to stay on the road.

Question, has anyone noticed a slight drag on the left front tire when you disengage the CAD while moving? I did an unplanned 360 last year on ice just after I selected 2wd while moving. (coming up on a dry intersection) VERY SCARY!!