Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Fuel additives and lift pumps

[Rockcrusher]

Originally posted by dsherman

where can you get stanadyne blue?

Thank you

David

Not sure where you are at in Calif, but Diesel Injection Service in San Bernardino has it.

They are a good long time shop and highly recommend the Blue due to the low sulfer etc. They also do a lot of injection pumps and know what works. 909-885-0590.

 

[rweis]

Opps, I thought the sulfur was the lubricant, back to the drawing boards and research more on what the process REALLY is.



SORRY, I was NOT correct! on the sulfur thing at all.



Bob Weis

 

[Hohn]

Originally posted by rweis

The Central Florida TDR club went to SouthEast Power Systems of Orlando about 6 months ago. They rebuild dozens of high pressure pumps a DAY of all types. They rebuild injectors etc as well. We asked them the one thing an owner can do to "keep her running". Their answer was DO NOT EVER LET EVEN THE SMALLEST AMOUNT OF WATER IN THE SYSTEM! Water will damage the high pressure pumps faster than anything else.



Ok, how do you do that? They recommended Stanadyne Blue in EVERY tank. One thing it does is hold the water in suspension so it can pass and be burned.



The other key thing it does is provide internal lubrication beyond the fuel itself. You know that there is a federal mandate to lessen the amount of sulfure by 2006. Sulfure is part of the lubrication of the pumps. How do you know if you have just gotten a tank of low sulfure fuel? You don't!



Stanadyne blue in EVEY tank safe guards against low sulfure and emulsifies the water to keep from internal pump damage.



We asked why Stanadyne blue, why not something else? Their answer was because it works!



That is what they do for a living, fix pumps. Works for me.



Bob Weis

This information is partially incorrect, or at least unclear. Sulphur does NOT lubricate your HP pump-- or any pump for that matter. It is abrasive and generally a bad thing in terms of lubricity. The reason that low sulphur is associated with low lubricity is that the refining process that reduces sulphur reduces lubricity as well. Their relationship is that they have a common cause, not that one causes the other.



The info about water is right on. Stanadyne performance formula is great stuff, but lately I have been running Redline. The redline is said to lubricate VERY well, but also reduce smoke.



I can vouch that the Redline REALLY reduces dmoke on my truck up here in the relatively high country (6K' elev)



HOHN.

 

[Rman]

It's a pretty common thing to read that everyone links low sulpher fuel ruining their pumps because of the "low sulpher". Sulpher in the fuel is actually harmful to the engine and frankly it's a good thing they take it out.



Like a couple others have said before, the process of removing hinders the lubricity. However, the FED has also established a lubricity standard that the fuel must meet before it can be approved for use. So this whole lubricity and additive package is really nonsense. I use LE additive for the other properties it has... mostly the anti gelling agents. The emulsifier is paramount though, water is extremely harmful to injection pumps.

 

[RRFinch]

OK. I AM CONFUSED! I read the posts about using Stanadyne Blue to keep water away from the lift pump.

Then, I do a search for suppliers of Stanadyne Blue. There, I find descriptions that say Blue is a DEmulsifier, and that this helps water seperators work. Common sense to me says that Blue takes the water out of emulsion; in otherwords, it is NOT mixed with the fuel.

Now, unless one places a filter between the fuel tank and the lift pump it seems to me we would get WATER (along with fuel) into the pump. Isn't this just the opposite of what we want to do?

It seems to me if water were emulsified into the fuel it would pass through the lift pump and be burned.



signed,



CONFUSED

 

[Ncostello]

Emulsification allows all the water to come together in larger globs in the diesel. Once in a group, its easier for the seperator to take it out of the diesel flow in one large chunk.



If its "dissolved" or evenly distributed... more makes it through a little at a time. Thats when its burned... when its finely distributed. Anything thats an emulsion is two or more liquids in a container that will not mix and remain seperate no matter how much you mix. But it still suffers the effects of dispersion depending on the chemicals in question.



So emulsion makes it easier to take out. Since all of our trucks have some sort of water seperator thats fine. If they didn't it would be a bad thing to do cause the injector pump would get a nice gulp of water instead of a little at a time.

 

[RowJ]

ncostello

You said "emulsion make it easier to take water out" If you mean by means of water separator - this is incorrect. An emulsion is a finely divided liquid suspended in another liquid.

For our porpose it is large water drops broken up into very small

droplets and suspended in diesel fuel. These smaller, chemically encapsulated water droplets are small enough to pass through pumps and injector tips without doing damage.

To me, an additive that will do this, as well as replace lubricity in low sulfur fuel and lower gel point in cold weather is worth every penny.

I had not heard about federal mandate (mentioned above) for added lubricity in low sulfur fuel. Does anyone know if this is refinery's obligation or is it up to fuel jobbers? I have seen many jobbers who claim to be adding good stuff to diesel but when asked, could not produce hard copy of what additive they used.

This was 2 yrs ago and may have changed but I prefer to know I have an additive in my fuel-because I added it myself.

 

[Rman]

RowJ, I just read up on this and from what i interpreted, the FED mandates a certain lubricity level in low sulfur fuel. I'll do some searchin and pull up a link or two.



One point i've picked up in reading is that the two fuels require different seal systems in the pumps. Apparently mixing them, or using the wrong fuel in the wrong "truck" will deteriorate the seals rapidly.



From the jargon i've read so far it seems as if they plan on introducing it slowly and labeling it as such, but it also seems like a task that just plain can't be done.



For instance they say that 2007 and later trucks will require the ultra-low sulfer fuel and that it cannot run on the high sulpher fuel because it will ruin the complex exhaust system in place to control emissions.



It is definitly something we all need to watch out for in the near future.

 

[Ncostello]

I stand corrected. I apologize for the mis-information. Its been 10 years since I last stepped foot in the chemistry lab or opened the book . You are right. I kept thinking of taking things out of emulsion.



Maybe thats why I never have any water in the seperator!! It all just passes through. Of course the place I buy fuel from has high quality stuff and I've never seen or heard of any kind of algae or water problems.

 

[Rman]

Ok, I was wrong, or atleast i think i am wrong. I've read conflicting reports on the lubricity requirement for diesel. It seems the Fed is still determining its path on switching to low sulfur diesel and has not yet established a requirement. Europe has however, and they have been using this low sulfur diesel for some time.



Most of you know that Europe has a much larger diesel market and intern has a much better program for clean, well regulated diesel. Apparenly the american market cannot be construed the same way, thank the huge money hungry petro companies where the product doesn't matter to them as much as the bottom line.



So any way, things are in the works for a lubricity alternative for the low sulfur diesel. In the mean time i suggest using an additive of your choice.

 

[radar doctor]

Year of truck and Mileage

In any poll and discussion, it would be nice if we had the mileage and model of your trucks? Tkanks

 

[D Baker]

With all this talk about water in the fuel I had to look at my bottle of Power Service. I didn't see anything on how it works to keep water out so I called the tech line and this is what he had to say. I asked if he could send it to me Email so I could post it and he did. It would take a very big bottle to put all of this on it. I used PS in my 99 all the time and I will continue to use it in my 03.



Hello Don,



Below is an email I sent to another customer that was asking the same questions you were. I hope this information helps. Also I would like to point out that Power Service Products, Inc. is the largest manufacturer of diesel fuel additives in the USA. More fleets use our products than any other product on the market.



International Truck and Engine Corporation manufactures the diesel engines in light-duty Ford Trucks and well as for their line of International diesel trucks. Power Service Products, Inc. is the only diesel fuel additive company to have a direct corporate-wide program with International. Not only does International Truck sell our products in their dealerships, all Ford Dealerships across the United States have access to Power Service Products through Blue Diamond Parts, LLC, which is a joint venture between Ford Motor Company and International Corporation. Also, Freightliner, Peterbilt and Mack also sell our products in their dealerships and they also buy from Power Service Products, Inc. No other additive company in America has such a presence in the marketplace.



It is OK with me if you wish to post this information. A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a fuel solubilizer are all water dispersants. The emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur.

GM just recently issued a Technical Bulletin warning not to use any product with alcohols or emulsifiers. Emulsifiers are chemicals that pull water up into the fuel suspending the water as droplets in the fuel. Alcohols can adversely affect lubricity and the cheaper alcohols can damage pumps and injectors. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Ford has also come out with a Technical Bulletin not to use any alcohols but I have not seen any reports by Ford on emulsifiers.





Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can strip antigels out of your fuel. Also, there are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.



Our Diesel Fuel Supplement contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out. Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out this water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is call Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. The deicer can also help to pick up small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement.





Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water.



There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water.



If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to take care of the water. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the temperatures can be severe in the winter months then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter sets in I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. All fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent any fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water. The best way to rid the system of water is to pump it off the bottom, however most fuel systems are not made to easily access the system and pump off the water. Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem and it does not have to be used with every fill-up.





When we manufacture our products we take the requirements of the Original Engine Manufactures and the ASTM D975 Standard (the standard to which diesel fuel is manufactured) and the National Council of Weights and Measures (NCWM) into consideration. We want to be sure that our products meet their needs, which is in your best interest.



Be assured that if it runs on diesel fuel it will run better on Power Service Products. If you have any other questions or concerns please give me a call at (800)643 9089 or email me at -- email address removed --.



Best regards,



Brian Wilson



Technical Support



Power Service Products, Inc.

 

[Duluth Diesel]

Well thank you VERY much for the Power Service info. I'm glad to see I'm using good stuff.



In the summer, I run Diesel Kleen in every tank of Premium Murphy Oil Diesel (Refinery in Superior, WI). I usually get my additives by the case from the Cummins shop in Duluth.

Last winter I ran Power Service Diesel Fuel Additive (white bottle) that is an all-season additive. This winter I will be running Power Service's Arctic Express (blue bottle) in every tank along with Murphy Premium Arctic Diesel.



All these LP and VP problems, I don't want cheap fuel to cost me.



Again, thanks for the great info! Very helpful.