Fuel Additives for the 6.7

[neelre]

Hello everybody:



I am new to the TDR and the TDR website. Joined up a few days ago because of all the great info I have seen in the mag and on the website. Keep up the good work guys!!!!!



Just bought a 2007. 5 leftover with the 6. 7 in it. It is a 3500 quad cab, DRW, automatic 68RFE trans, big horn edition, and inferno red in color. Build date was 3/07 as memory serves. Shaved $12500. 00 off sticker and made them give me $21,000. 00 for my old truck, which was a 2006 F-250 4X4 super cab gasser with the Triton 5. 4. Thought it was a good deal for the amount of discount involved, but had to play hardball with them to get them down that much.



I think it has the G30 recall done. Has the sticker on the front support bar on engine compartment. I think this was the reflash of the ECM. Don't know if they did anything with the o2 sensor though. I think the sticker just says something about a reflash of the ECM.



Anyhow, I'm getting about 13. 3 in city driving according to the lie-o-meter on the EVIC.



Been looking at fuel additives for the 6. 7 in the hopes of getting better gas mileage. Saw that Stanadyne has an updated brochure (dated 9/07) on their website for the Diesel Performance Formula.



Says that the new Performance Formula is not only safe for use with ULSD, but they also say, "Stanadyne additives are also compatible with the latest generation of catalytic converters, urea injection systems, particulate

filters and other exhaust treatment technologies. Engine warranties should not be affected. "



You can check out the link here:

http://www.stanadyne.com/new/ppt/showfile.asp?id=4205



Note the reference about the DPF. Stanadyne is saying the additive is DPF safe. They also state that the additive can be used in conjunction with their other products, and also should work OK with any additives added by the fuel manufacturer.



We all know Dodge's position on additives in the Owner's Manual. They state that diesel additives are not "necessary," for the 6. 7 but don't really say anything about them being prohibited, or that the use of them will void warranty.



Does anybody have any TSB's or official correspondance from Dodge or Cummins saying that the use of additives in the new 6. 7's will damage the DPF or void the warranty? If so, I would like to see them or send me a link to the location of the information.



Also, has anybody out there been denied warranty coverage on the basis of using a fuel additive alone? Has anybody experienced a DPF failure or higher regen rate on the DPF because of using a DPF approved additive like Stanadyne?



In my mind, it stands to reason that the quality of the ULSD we are getting might not be up to snuff or as good as any diesel in the past. Look at regular gasoline. I have several friends that have had troubles with water in their gasoline, and also my 2006 F-250 gasser would knock on anything lower than 89 octane. If I used 87 octane it sounded like a one man band under the hood!!!!!



I am a firm believer that the quality of the fuel in recent years has gotten worse because of the high price of the base stock and crude. The manufacturers are looking to cut corners to save on refining costs, and so perhaps cut corners on additives and refining measures where they can.



Have seen some old threads on the TDR talking about fuel additives and the 6. 7, but these were from about 5-6 months ago.



Wondering if you guys want to take another look at this and see if there any recent developments.



By the way, Geno's garage has a Mopar Fuel System Conditioner listed on their website for diesel engines. This looks to be coming direct form Mopar (dodge). I am not sure if it is safe for the 6. 7, but I find it ironic that Dodge states in manuals that no additive is to be used, and yet also offers an additive themselves. Talk about a contradiction!!!!!!



Let's see if we can generate some discussion on this, and see where it goes... ...



neelre

 

[HSpiering]

Read Paragraph 3, (6. 7 HP CR) Page #42 Last TDR.

 

[neelre]

I have not got my back issues yet, but was that the paragraph that stated NO Additives for the 6. 7?



I saw this in my friend's mag, but there seems to be conflicting reports from the additive makers as well as dodge. Dodge says it is not necessary, but nothing about it being strictly prohibited.



Was there ever any TSB's posted by Dodge on the subject?



neelre

 

[JBob Diesel]

Neelre, I'm with you on additives! If Dodge forbids any fuel additives, then they better send that information to me in writing! Otherwise, I have not been legally informed of that requirement. I personally use 1oz. of Stanadyne Lubricity Formula and 7oz. of Stanadyne Performance Formula for every 30 gallons of fuel (approximately). My main concern is the amount of lubricity in the fuel available. I don't know if some yokel is putting the correct amount of lubricity additive in the fuel or not. I have been doing this for 6k miles and everything is fine. If an additive screws up part of the emissions system, thats tough. It's alot cheaper to fix that than replace injectors as far as I know. I like the piece of mind of an additive.

__________________

 

[DPellegrin]

Gentlemen, Gentlemen,



I have watched the debate rage over the lubricity, as well as the fuel economy issue with ULSD. I can only tell you this: The company I work for buys about 11,000,000 gallons of ULSD per year. We sample and test the stuff regularly for among other things, lubricity. It has never failed to meet the published Cummins and Detroit Diesel requirements. Also fuel economy has been unaffected. The API gravity (energy content) of this fuel is no different than it has always been. Now it would seem to me that if there were all these problems with ULSD that CAT, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Volvo, Mack all would be making a lot of noise, but they are not!



"Our problems don't come from what we don't know, they come from what we know for sure, but just ain't so. " Mark Twain.



Best Regards,

 

[HSpiering]

JBob Diesel;

Your info from Dodge "There is no way for us to give you reassurance about aftermarket products. We have no idea what effects they will have on the engine. Espicially regarding additives we don't know what chemicals are in the additives and we don't know what happens when they burn. We neither approve nor condemn the use of any aftermarket product. Under normal circumstances we do not believe additives are necessary. Because your product is warranted by Dodge not Cummins it would be best to verify all these details with them. " Not really needed by this. For the info from Dodge I see Carson Dodge did get IN WRITING from dodge not to put additives in 6. 7. You may check with them. Dodge may not have your address. :-laf:-laf

 

[neelre]

I just looked at the manual for my old F-250 gasser and it seems that Ford does not recommend using any additives for the F-250 gas trucks either.



There was also a diesel supplement in with my F-250 books. In there it also says that Ford does not want you to use additives for the diesels they sell either.



I think pretty much all major auto makers do not approve of the use of additives of any kind in the fuel.



This is most likely because they have no way to verify the ability of an additive to do what it says, and cannot test all of the additives in each engine platform.



I also don't think there is any nationwide standardized testing for additives.



But, on the flip side, if all ULSD was the same, and it all had the required lubrication and met all national testing standards, then why do BOTH Ford and Dodge recommend getting "a high quality diesel fuel from a known good source that dispenses a large amount of fuel".



If it's all the same, then why should it matter where you get it from!!!!!



Of course, then you think about water in the holding tanks and all that stuff, but those tanks have to be tested every year according to EPA regs. If there is water in them, then they have to correct the problem.



So, then we're back to all ULSD being the same. It has to pass the government regs for certain standards and whatnot.



My biggest concern with ULSD is that the process which removes the sulfur from the ULSD also removes many of the natural lubrication compounds in the fuel. Other high lubricity compounds then have to be placed back into the fuel. This is why we are told that the ULSD fuel is more expensive.



Hey, if an oil company wants to cut corners, then why not use less of the expensive high lubricity compounds? How do we know that we are getting a consistant quality product each fill up, time after time?



I would like to hear from more people who have used Stanadyne or other diesel additives in their 6. 7's. Have you had any problems, and have you had any grief from dodge on warranty issues directly related to the use of the additives?



neelre

 

[neelre]

JBob Diesel;

Your info from Dodge "There is no way for us to give you reassurance about aftermarket products. We have no idea what effects they will have on the engine. Espicially regarding additives we don't know what chemicals are in the additives and we don't know what happens when they burn. We neither approve nor condemn the use of any aftermarket product. Under normal circumstances we do not believe additives are necessary. Because your product is warranted by Dodge not Cummins it would be best to verify all these details with them. " Not really needed by this. For the info from Dodge I see Carson Dodge did get IN WRITING from dodge not to put additives in 6. 7. You may check with them. Dodge may not have your address. :-laf:-laf

There was a TSB bulletin issued by Dodge on the fuel requirements for the 6. 7. It does say in this TSB that diesel additives are not "recommended" for the 5. 9 or 6. 7 engines. However, this is nothing more than what every auto maker has been saying in the past I think. Also, the TSB was issued about 6 months ago, probably before any 2007 compliant additives had been mass marketed.



If you read the fine print in every owners manual for Ford or Dodge (and probably many others) you'll see that most of the major auto makers DO NOT approve the use of additives of any kind.



However, my major concern with any additive is will it hurt the truck or adversely effect warranty coverage?



I just looked at the line of diesel additives that Power Service sells and they say that their additives are safe for ULSD and also DPF's.



It is too bad that they can't get an endorsement from Dodge, or I'd be running it!!!!!



Anybody used a 2007 approved additive in their 6. 7 and had problems?



neelre

 

[TulsaOkie]

I had my DPF replaced do to using Lucas when I first bought the truck. I started seeing black smoke from day 1 after using additive, had a o2 sensor go out and then the DPF needed replaced at 60k. after the DPF was replaced no more smoke and no more soot on the rear of the truck. I always use ULSD, or at least the stickers say that... . And now 71k in 6 months with no problems. Knock on wood.....

 

[neelre]

TulsaOkie:



What was the specific Lucas product that you used? Did the dodge dealer cover the replacement of the DPF under warranty?



I wonder if the Lucas product was approved for the 2007 model year engines with the DPF. Did it say anything like that on the bottle?



neelre

 

[DFeldman]

neelre,



I spoke to my dealer about fuel additives as I was concerned about geling during the winter. I know the fuel manufacturers make the winter blends to prevent geling but I still worry about it. I figure more anti-gel is only going to hurt mileage.



I spoke to the service manager, the tech and anyone else that seemed to have knowledge. The answer I got was a page out of the manual that said additives were not recommended. The dealer then told me though not recommended, there are not restricted. I was told to use a brand name additive of my choice. I asked them to make a note in my service file about the conversation and stood there while they did it. I told them I was concerned about later warranty issues and they said as long as it is brand name and ulsd compliant they would cover me. I now run Power service and have had no problems.

 

[BHolm]

I think additives are a complete waste of money period. There are tons of guys with tons of miles on 5. 9 trucks who never have used additives and never have had problems. There is NO proof that these things are actually a benefit, they are all snake oil at best. I tried Redlines additive for a while on my '05. It was the only third gen I have owned that needed an injector replaced. Everything you truck needs is in the fuel at the pump, always has been. I used to buy large quantities of diesel too, not 11 million gallons but maybe 25k. Never used additives, trucks sat outside in northern Minnesota as did the bulk fuel tank. Never had fuel related issues in millions of miles, never had gel problems.



Maybe concentrate on keeping a good fuel filter change regimen going if the injectors concern you. I have seen lots of guys with 2 mic filtration have trouble too so no promises there either.



To void your warranty based on using an additive, they have to PROVE it was the additive that was at fault. I wouldn't worry about that.

 

[neelre]

Bholm:



Yes, but there are additives in your fuel right out of the pump. Our biggest concern here is that we not getting ENOUGH additives. I personally live in a cold climate and worry about gelling in the winter, and also the lack of lubrication on the new ULSD.



neelre

 

[neelre]

Anybody found out anything new on additives for the 6. 7?



Would like to start using some, but I am just too scared to do it right now.



neelre

 

[DPellegrin]

Neelre- Why do you think you need some fuel additive? Does the fuel you use meet ASTM- D976, DF2? This is commercial grade #2 diesel and is the fuel that Cummins, DDC, CAT, and many others publish as their fuel specification requirements. The only additive I have ever seen that actually worked as advertised is cetane enhancer.



Regards,

 

[neelre]

DPellegrin:



I would like to use an additive becuase I worry about the quality of the Number 2 deisel that is available commercially out there. I think the ULSD you buy at the pump is spotty at best with regards to whether or not it has the right amount of additives for lubricity, anti-gelling, and so forth.



You know, now the additives for diesel ARE NOT placed in the fuel at the refinery level. They are placed in at the distribution levels. How do we know whether or not we are getting the right amount or the right kinds of additives?



Even assuming the fuel does have the "right stuff" in it, the nature of ULSD is such that I would just fell better running a little extra protection. I would feel better knowing that it was in there as long as it did not hurt my vehicle.



How about everybody else? Now there are many companies that are selling additives that are ULSD approved and not supposed to cause any problems with NOX catalysts and DPFs.



Are there other people out there running additives in their 6. 7's?



neelre

 

[DPellegrin]

I have had my truck for 69,000 miles now and not once have had a fuel quality issue. I think you are worrying too much! Find service stations close to a highway that sell many gallons of diesel fuel per day. I would worry more about the fuel sitting around for long periods of time rather than the quality. Anyone thinking that ULSD will make their truck not run is just plain foolish. How many gallons of fuel a day do you think New York City transit uses? If they were failing engines because of ULSD Cummins and DDC would be having a fit. Imagine if 3,000 or more bus engines decided to fail while on warranty? In my opinion cetane boost is the only thing that really works in terms of the additive department. I had powerservice in my truck yesterday the temp was -16*F and it fired up on first try. It is also in my opinion that trying to use snake oil additives that are sold and advertised by many TDR members and companies is just plain foolish and a very good way to set money afire. Getting better fuel economy by adding something in a bottle mixed in someones basement just isnt so.

Best Regards, Nick

 

[HBarlow]

I have had my truck for 69,000 miles now and not once have had a fuel quality issue. I think you are worrying too much! Find service stations close to a highway that sell many gallons of diesel fuel per day. I would worry more about the fuel sitting around for long periods of time rather than the quality. Anyone thinking that ULSD will make their truck not run is just plain foolish. How many gallons of fuel a day do you think New York City transit uses? If they were failing engines because of ULSD Cummins and DDC would be having a fit. Imagine if 3,000 or more bus engines decided to fail while on warranty? In my opinion cetane boost is the only thing that really works in terms of the additive department. I had powerservice in my truck yesterday the temp was -16*F and it fired up on first try. It is also in my opinion that trying to use snake oil additives that are sold and advertised by many TDR members and companies is just plain foolish and a very good way to set money afire. Getting better fuel economy by adding something in a bottle mixed in someones basement just isnt so.

Best Regards, Nick

I agree with everything you wrote in each of your posts on this thread. I have put more than 550,000 miles on two Dodge Rams with no fuel related problems. I have never had a injector, injection pump, or other fuel system part failure.



I have purchased about 98% of my fuel at Flying J truck stops. I have never had any fuel contamination either.



The only time anything other than #2 diesel fuel has been pumped or poured into my tanks has been when the temps were going to be below 15f overnight I tried to remember to dump in a bottle of cheap Power Service anti-gel purchased from Wal-Mart.



100 years or so ago itinerant traveling salesmen/scam artists traveled America in horse-drawn wagons selling "snake oil" and other products of unknown content to suckers by promising them that the products contained magical healing powers that would cure anything that ailed them.



Salesmen now sell fuel additives and engine oils with magical curative powers for engines. Salesmen on late night television sell magical cures for people. I make no direct comparison. Buyers are free to make their own choices.



I tend to believe that Cummins/Dodge engineers who tell us fuel additives are not needed or recommended have good reason to publish this information. I also believe that manufacturers and salesmen who sell fuel additives have good reason to promote their products. I suspect the reasons for these opposing policies are probably opposite as well.



Harvey

 

[neelre]

Fellas:



From what I hear on this thread, even the two folks that say not to use additives are using some form of additive when the whether gets cold. The last two fellas to post on here said they use an anti-gel additive when the weather gets cold.



I just want to make a point of clarification here. When I refer to additive, I am referring to a name brand mainstream additive like Power Service, Amsoil, or Stanadyne.



I am not even thinking about using an additive made in the basement of somebodies garage. I am referring to big companies who spend a lot of money each year researching and developing additives to increase lubricity, provide anti-gel protection and improve gas mileage.



I am not talking about the "lightning in a bottle" companies that make claims for increased horsepower and all that stuff. I am just talking about using an additive like Power Service or Stanadyne.



I just want to run an additive that will increase lubricity, reduce gelling and cold filter plug point, and keep my fuel pump and injectors clean and trouble free.



Hope this clears it up for some people.



neelre

 

[neelre]

Fellas:



Well I finally bit the bullet and called Power Service and talked to one of the chemists. The claim that the additive package used in the Power Service diesel supplement (the stuff you buy at Wal-Mart) is no different than the additive packages used in "premium" grade diesel fuel.



They also said that they provide the additive packages used by some major fuel supply companies for the presiously mentioned "premium" diesel fuel.



He also told me something very interesting. He said that Wal-Mart uses Power Service in their own fleet of diesel vehicles. Not just a few of them, but ALL of them. He said Wal-Mart conducted a study on the long term effectiveness of additives from Power Service and other additive makers and determined that Power Service offered the most benefit for the least amount of money.



It also interesting to note that Power Service is sold at every Wal-Mart in the country. They don't sell other diesel additives, just Power Service.



He also said that Power Service supplies diesel additives to many major fleet operators in the USA and Canada.



I assume these companies, like Wal-Mart are big compnaies that have the power to conduct their own studies with regard to fuel mileage, breakdowns, and service intervals for their trucks. It is interesting to note that they choose to run an additive because of the benefits.



I finally broke down and bought a bottle of Power Service Diesel Fuel Supplement at Wal Mart. I put it in my 6. 7. It seems that cold start up has gotten a lot faster, and the motor does not seem to be as loud with regard to valvetrain noise and that typical "diesel" sound.



I also seem to have gained about a half a mile per gallon so far.



I have about 200 miles on the tank, so we'll see what happens in the long term.



Somehow I just feel better about using an additive because I think it gives me extra protection. Even if it does not, as long as it does not hurt my truck, it at least makes me feel better!!!!!!



I called my dealership and they said as long as the additive is 2007 ULSD compliant, there is nothing to be concerned about. They also said that it might be a good idea in the Northern climates to use an anti-gel additive like Power Service to protect against gelling in the winter time.



So, that's all I have for now. I keep you guys posted on how she performs with the additive.



neelre