Archived Fuel delivery problem??

[gforce71]

Sometimes when cruising (any gear), not de-accelerating or accelerating, the engine will begin to cut out (almost like it’s out of fuel). If you gently touch the throttle, it will bog down (like it’s out of fuel), but if you let off the throttle or step down on it, it will clean out and run fine. It also seems to be lacking a little power. I changed the fuel filter (whole other story), thinking maybe It was plugged, with no change. I checked the codes and am getting two codes (that my book doesn't list) P0216 & P1693. Has anyone experienced this or do you have the codes listed? Any help would be greatly appreciated as it’s getting worse.





Thanks,

Jeff

 

[01smokinram]

Problems

Sounds like your lift pump is going south. Mine did the same thing until i replaced the lift pump. PO1693 is a normal code. I'll find out what the other code is when i get home.

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

p0216 is fuel injection pump timing error, it usually means that your injection pump is toast. About your fuel filter change, did you have problems associated to a dead lift pump?

 

[24V-DSL]

P0216 is "Injection pump timing failure".



Look back at my posts since April and you'll see details of the symptoms and trouble-shooting I did before I faced reality and got a new VP44 installed at PDR. That fixed the problem. Hope it works out different for you.



Edit... . I mean I hope it's not your injection pump

 

[gforce71]

I appreciate all of your quick responses. From all of your comments and from past postings that I have begun to read, the P1693 appears to relate to the lift pump and the P0216 is the injector pump(VP44). I’m thinking the P0216 code is may be because the lift pump isn’t getting the fuel to the VP44 correctly. The VP44 has already been replace 20 or 30K miles ago (luckly under warranty at that time). Hopefully it’s not bad again (don’t want to pay for it on my own this time). I figured I would replace the lift pump first, and then see if I need to look into a new VP44.



24V-DSL- I didn’t read through all of your threads yet, did you replace the lift pump first?



Turbo Tim1- I changed my fuel filter, and didn’t fill the filter and tried to start it per the instructions in the manual. However, it was not pumping the fuel at all. So, I took it back off and filled the filter and tried again. It took quite a while, but it finally started. What a pain, my dad had a 95’ that had the manual primer on it. it seemed a whole lot easier to change the filter.



Sounds like fuel pressure is a huge thing to monitor. It also looks like boost and EGT are big things to watch too. Think it’s time to invest in some gauges.

 

[24V-DSL]

Jeff...



I didn't replace the lift pump at all since I have a fuel pressure guage and the sender comes off at the VP inlet. My pressure readings were strong. Had them checked with a mechanical guage to validate. Suggest you have your pressure checked as well before replacing the lift pump.



The other things I did were replace my Edge comp. , re-set the TPS/APPS, and replace the cam position sensor. None made any difference. I also had my codes cleared ~20 times over the three months I dealt with this. It would come back after a few miles, and I didn't have to experience a "driveability" issue to trip the code.



I'm not sure about this, but I thought the injection pump is warranted under the 100K engine?? If your truck is stock and you're under 100K I'd check it out. I know a guy who lost his VP44 on a bone stock 02 with 12K on the clock.

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

Do a search on lift pumps or fuel pressure and you will come up with enough reading to keep you busy for 50 years. Keeping an eye on lift pump pressures is extremely important, because they can and will go bad at any moment and if the lift pump stops pumping it can have a detrimental effect on the vp-44. A temporary gauge is nice to have and cheap but a permenant gauge is better. The p1693 is what is called a companion code, it will come in any time there is another code and has nothing directly to do with the lift pump. There are no codes to show that a lift pump is good or bad. As far as the filter change, it is best to either have clean fuel to top off the filter bowl with or crack open the line to the vp-44 and run the lift pump with a twitch of the key to fill the system until fuel comes out of the line at the vp-44 then tighten it back up. Good luck with your problem, I doubt you'll have luck with the dealer but if the vp-44 is dead again the dealer might replace it again under warranty since it is not that old even if the engine warranty has expired.

 

[24V-DSL]

One more thing....

Start your truck... hot or cold. If cold, let things setlle a minute or so. Rev it up either in neutral or with the clutch depressed. About every 6th try I'd get huge smoke and a "flooding" action.



Be careful. One of the other random driveability symptoms I'd sometimes have was no power off of a dead stop. Took 15-20 seconds just to get up to 40 mph. Truck didn't stumble... nothin', just no power. No way to predict when it would happen, and was scary a couple of times with traffic bearing down.

 

[gforce71]

yes, i know what you mean about the traffic bearing down on you and having no power. Been there too.



I'll check the pressure first and then go from there. I have 105K now. Hopefully they'll replace the VP44 on warranty if it really is that.



I'm looking into gauges also. there's not very many choices for fuel pressure guages.

 

[CstlEng]

It really sounds like the lift pump... everything you describe points to it as a real possibility. The pump not filling the filter is a BIG indicator. Aside from a plugged pickup in the tank or a kinked line, a bad LP is the only other (reasonably common) thing that would keep the filter from filling after bumping the starter. Good luck.



There are more choices for fuel pressure gauges than you may realize. try geno's garage... a lot of members seem to shop there, and they seem to have nice kits with all you need. There are other options for the adventuresome... Graingers or McMaster-Carr and some creativity are all you really need.

 

[rweis]

I put Westach solid state pressure gauges on mine. NO moving parts to go bad. Pricy once. Aircraft grade. Also trying to keep the LP and VP happy I use a lubrication additive (also has a water emulsifier) in every tankful.



Just some thoughts,



Bob Weis

 

[gforce71]

I'm going to tackle this tonight, so we'll find out. What kind of pressures should I see (normally)? I'm just going to put a temporary gauge on for now, just to test the LP. I found a VP44 pressure tester online for around $50, not sure if I'm going to do that or not, if I have correct pressure before the VP44 then I'll probably take it back to the place that replaced it and try and get it warrantied. Hopefully it's just the LP, found one of those for about $300.



Thanks to everyone for your help!! I'm new to the TDR and have been really really impressed. Hopefully I can return the help and friendliness sometime down the road.



Jeff

 

[SAvery]

Hey Gforce,

I had I think the similar thing happen. One day when it was hot, my truck wouldn't start, but it would when it was cold. I thought it was a water in fuel problem. So I started bleeding fuel using the stopcock at the fuel filter (it's an 01 with 56K). Turns out it was the injection pump. I was lucky it was under warranty. Sounds like that could be your problem. Just passing some of my experience along.

 

[24V-DSL]

Jeff... . if you need a lift pump, don't pay $300.



Should be half that at a Cummins shop. Don't buy any parts from a dealer that you can get from Cummins, unless you want to pay double, and sometimes more. For sure, if it ends up you need a new VP44, don't buy it from the dealer if it's your nickle.

 

[CstlEng]

Agreed that $150 is a lot closer to the going rate for LP pumps in the real world.



You should see about 15PSI at idle and ideally at steady throttle, rolling down the highway. A properly working pump with nothing weird happening between it and the tank should give somewhere in the 10 to 12 PSI range at wide open throttle, post filter with a clean filter. You probably can get away with seeing drops at WOT to 6 or 8 PSI as long as they are short (a couple seconds or so at a time), but this is really starting to push things.



If you ever see less than this change the filter right away. If that does not fix it, change the LP. If that does not fix it, check the fuel line back to the tank. If all is in order there, bench test the LP to make sure it was good out of the box, check voltage under load at the LP in the truck (check when the intake heaters are not cycling, should be at least 11. 0V, more like 11. 5V or more), then check the fuel regulator valve on the inlet to the VP44, and finally, if that is good (opens over 15 or 16 PSI, closes below 14 or 15 PSI), drop the tank and clean the crud off the screen on the bottom of the pick up/ fuel level sensor.

 

[gforce71]

Boy were you guys right…. The dealer was where I got the $300 price. I called my Cummins dealer. . $145 for the LP. I did drop the tank about 10K ago, to fix a problem with the gauge not reading and cleaned it out then (it was pretty clean, but did it anyway). Keeping my figures crossed that $150 is all I’ll have to spend.

 

[gforce71]

OK, now I'm feeling really stupid. I bought a fuel pressure gauge today (whole day looking for one, nobody stocks anything anymore... but they can order one), connected it to both of the 1/8 NPT fittings one at a time, and ... 0 pressure. Does this have to be connected to a banjo fitting or is this the news I've been looking for?



Thanks,

Jeff

 

[stephen bolger]

Sound like the vp pump is going. I had the same thing till the truck just died. I had to replace the vp pump. So i replaced the lift pump and ecm at the same time. The truck work better than when i first got it. if you have to replace the vp pump get a modified one.

 

[CstlEng]

0 PSI sounds like good news in your case. The 1/8" ports on top of the filter are what you want: one is pre filter and one is post filter, just like the Banjo bolts. When you get fancy and want to add more fuel gages, you can put one on each. You can then watch the drop between gages grow as the filter clogs over time and there will be little doubt what is happening in your fuel system... . we will talk more about that later For now though, IMHO you have some good news, and a definitely sign that your LP is shot. I would imagine that if you connected a vacuum gage to either port, you would see some vac (all be it small) right now.



BTW, don't run your engine right now... the VP does NOT like a lack of fuel pressure (in this case pressure is a measure of the volume of available fuel), and certainly not 0 PSI. The VP has extremely close tolerances in the internals, which are shaped not unlike a shaft in a bearing. The only thing that lubes it is surplus fuel. When all the fuel is being pumped out by the VP to be used for combustion, none is left in some parts of the "shaft" for lube... . ever see that castroll commercial about viscosity breakdown... you get the idea.



OK... if you really need to go over to the parts store and it is only a mile away go ahead and... . on second thought walk if it is that close, otherwise you might be buying a VP as well.

 

[gforce71]

That's what I was afraid of. I suspect I may have been driving this for a while with 0 pressure and just didn't know it. Hopefully the VP isn't gone too. I'm headed to the Cumins shop 2 miles away (still not taking the truck though) tomorrow.



Thanks to all for the help!! We'll find out tomorrow how it turns out!