Joe, that valve ball is SUPPOSED to be seated against the bulkhead that separates the motor from the pump - you should NOT be able to see the spring - you found the problem - it was the bypass valve allowing all/most of the fuel to simply flow in a circle inside the pump...
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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Fuel filter canister won't re-fill.
- Thread starter Joe Gerber
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Joe... Glad you got the problem fixed. I'd like to suggest that you spend a few more dollars and get a FP gauge. That's really the only way to tell when the pump is going bad. I've been using a Westach FP gauge for years with no problems at all, and yes I have had the Lift Pump replace (under warranty once) during this time. I took it to the dealer when I saw the FP beginning to drop. They replaced the Lift Pump without question.
Gary wrote:
Joe, that valve ball is SUPPOSED to be seated against the bulkhead that separates the motor from the pump - you should NOT be able to see the spring - you found the problem - it was the bypass valve allowing all/most of the fuel to simply flow in a circle inside the pump...
... and the reason why I use the Mallory 4307M bypass regulator after the lp is to keep the %&# check valve from ever functioning in the first place thus eliminating this potential problem...
Bob Weis
Joe, that valve ball is SUPPOSED to be seated against the bulkhead that separates the motor from the pump - you should NOT be able to see the spring - you found the problem - it was the bypass valve allowing all/most of the fuel to simply flow in a circle inside the pump...
... and the reason why I use the Mallory 4307M bypass regulator after the lp is to keep the %&# check valve from ever functioning in the first place thus eliminating this potential problem...
Bob Weis
Those stock bypass valves DO seem to cause their fair share of problems...
AS long as air doesn't infiltrate the fuel lines - such as swapping out the fuel filter - the MECHANICAL lift pump INSIDE the VP-44 is capable of keeping fuel flowing - just not as efficiently and in as much volume as the VP-44 *really* needs to live a normal life. That's why a fair number of owners are driving around with long-dead LP's, and never know it until they try to change out their fuel filters and discover it won't prime. By the time they are confronted with their LP failure, potential damage due to VP-44 fuel starvation has already taken place, and even with a new LP, and restored fuel pressure, VP-44 failure MIGHT be just around the corner...
(sorry Joe!)
GUAGES guys, G-U-A-G-E-S!!!!!!!
(sorry Joe!)
GUAGES guys, G-U-A-G-E-S!!!!!!!
Ncostello (Neil), I just saw your post and thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth and maybe a little extra!! (You know Me!)
The Fuel Preporator AirDog includes: a relay controlled wiring harness, also, air/fuel separation (self priming), a low pressure warning light, a water separator and 6 micron filtration and a transfer pump with very heavy duty electrics and high quality gearotor mechanism, all as standard equipment. The AirDog, an ISO-9001 Quality Manufactured product, approved for sale and use in California by CARB and having passed Japan's 15 mode transient emission test, steps ahead of the pack as the most comprehensive fuel filtration and supply system available for diesel engines on the market today. Available for your 5. 9 Cummins of all the way up to to the 8,000 hp and larger EMD marine engines!
Diesel fuel entrains air from motion and sloshing in the fuel tank. Ordinary lift pumps cavitate producing fuel vapor. Your fuel filter only removes water and particulate contaminates and restricts the already 'inadequate' fuel flow to your vacuum feed lift pump increasing cavitation and higher levels of fuel vapor. Air and vapor create problems in you injector pump as well as (because it is compressible) delaying the pressure build up in the injector, retarding timing which results in lost power, wasted increased fuel consumption and increased exhaust emissions. Why replace your 'old concept' lift pump when it fails with just another 'old concept' lift pump? Why wait for it to fail and take your high dollar injector pump with it,? Consider the original AirDog Fuel Preporator with all the whistles and bells to do the job right!
See www.ekstamworldwide.com or call us toll free at 1-877-463-4373 for more info!
The Fuel Preporator AirDog includes: a relay controlled wiring harness, also, air/fuel separation (self priming), a low pressure warning light, a water separator and 6 micron filtration and a transfer pump with very heavy duty electrics and high quality gearotor mechanism, all as standard equipment. The AirDog, an ISO-9001 Quality Manufactured product, approved for sale and use in California by CARB and having passed Japan's 15 mode transient emission test, steps ahead of the pack as the most comprehensive fuel filtration and supply system available for diesel engines on the market today. Available for your 5. 9 Cummins of all the way up to to the 8,000 hp and larger EMD marine engines!
Diesel fuel entrains air from motion and sloshing in the fuel tank. Ordinary lift pumps cavitate producing fuel vapor. Your fuel filter only removes water and particulate contaminates and restricts the already 'inadequate' fuel flow to your vacuum feed lift pump increasing cavitation and higher levels of fuel vapor. Air and vapor create problems in you injector pump as well as (because it is compressible) delaying the pressure build up in the injector, retarding timing which results in lost power, wasted increased fuel consumption and increased exhaust emissions. Why replace your 'old concept' lift pump when it fails with just another 'old concept' lift pump? Why wait for it to fail and take your high dollar injector pump with it,? Consider the original AirDog Fuel Preporator with all the whistles and bells to do the job right!
See www.ekstamworldwide.com or call us toll free at 1-877-463-4373 for more info!
"Why replace your 'old concept' lift pump when it fails with just another 'old concept' lift pump? Why wait for it to fail and take your high dollar injector pump with it,? Consider the original AirDog Fuel Preporator with all the whistles and bells to do the job right!"
Requires only your firstborn as payment in full, or all yer right arm and part of yer left - new lower interest rates mean that you may also refinance yer home, and have yer new fuel system payments spread out over 30 years... By that time, we'll probably be outta conventional fuels anyway, so system failures/replacement are pretty much a non-issue, since we'll all be walking or riding bicycles...
Requires only your firstborn as payment in full, or all yer right arm and part of yer left - new lower interest rates mean that you may also refinance yer home, and have yer new fuel system payments spread out over 30 years... By that time, we'll probably be outta conventional fuels anyway, so system failures/replacement are pretty much a non-issue, since we'll all be walking or riding bicycles...
The Preporator is worth the price
I'd recommend Preporator or the AirDog Mr Ekstam builds an exellent product and services it well. Merv
I'd recommend Preporator or the AirDog Mr Ekstam builds an exellent product and services it well. Merv
I personally don't think the price is too high considering all the problems the OEM lift pumps have caused people. Some folks are paying $200 for a stock lift pump replacement. For under $700 you can have something engineered to work with our trucks and something designed to last. If folks are willing to spend $1000 on wheels and tires, $800 on big injectors, $250 on a free flow intake, $300 on custom mud flaps, and $750 on an electronic performance box... then under $700 seems fair to provide reliable filtered fuel pressure and volume to the engine. Thats paying for basic engine needs. Too bad Cummins couldn't provide the reliability we needed. Replace two or three lift pumps and you've paid for the Preporator Air Dog.
At one point in time everyone wished there was a better pump or a better motor. Folks spent lots of money modifying their systems and trying every pump you could imagine. Some were not cheap either. And none of them were "rated" for diesel. Other pump companies said this to prevent any responsibility for failure under continuous use. Most all failed. Here is something that is designed for diesel and they don't hide that. Something made to fit our trucks and not for a hot rod coupe.
What are they supposed to do... design and manufacture the Air Dog and sell it for three installments of $19. 99?
I think the price is fair for what your getting overall.
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Gary, if I understand you, if the ball valve was working properly, I should be able to push against the ball and get it to move away from the seat and it should move back against the seat when I release it.
In my case, the end of the spring that rests against the ball has either broken off or uncoiled enough so that the ball was allowed to fall inside the spring. When I pushed against the ball, I wasn't able to move it at all I don't think. I had trouble keeping the allen wrench I used for pushing, from sliding off the ball. I must confess, that when I did push against the ball I gave it a fairly good push. Perhaps I jammed it somehow, and that is why it doesn't rattle when I shake the pump assembly. It seems to me something should rattle if the spring and ball are as far out of position as mine are (I'm still talking about the pump, not my anatomy. ). It also seems to me that the spring should out last the motor and its components etc. Shame on Carter. The pump hub, impellers, and housing look well made though.
Neil, I agree with you about using my thumb to try and slow the motor down to see if it was the problem. Have to admit that it wasn't the first time I acted before engaging brain fullly.
Rick, you're right. I've been reading about the value of a guage for a long time, and have procrastinated. Now, as Gary said, I may be in for a new VP-44. My nickel. Not smart. The old TV ad, "Pay me now, or pay me later" is usually true. When will I learn.
So, I need to put in a guage, at least I can then monitor the less than perfect factory arrangement. Because of what failed in my pump, the by-pass regulator that Bob Weis mentioned seems logical. The "Preporator" sounds like a top quality fix, but right now I'm not up for the investment.
Joe
In my case, the end of the spring that rests against the ball has either broken off or uncoiled enough so that the ball was allowed to fall inside the spring. When I pushed against the ball, I wasn't able to move it at all I don't think. I had trouble keeping the allen wrench I used for pushing, from sliding off the ball. I must confess, that when I did push against the ball I gave it a fairly good push. Perhaps I jammed it somehow, and that is why it doesn't rattle when I shake the pump assembly. It seems to me something should rattle if the spring and ball are as far out of position as mine are (I'm still talking about the pump, not my anatomy. ). It also seems to me that the spring should out last the motor and its components etc. Shame on Carter. The pump hub, impellers, and housing look well made though.
Neil, I agree with you about using my thumb to try and slow the motor down to see if it was the problem. Have to admit that it wasn't the first time I acted before engaging brain fullly.
Rick, you're right. I've been reading about the value of a guage for a long time, and have procrastinated. Now, as Gary said, I may be in for a new VP-44. My nickel. Not smart. The old TV ad, "Pay me now, or pay me later" is usually true. When will I learn.
So, I need to put in a guage, at least I can then monitor the less than perfect factory arrangement. Because of what failed in my pump, the by-pass regulator that Bob Weis mentioned seems logical. The "Preporator" sounds like a top quality fix, but right now I'm not up for the investment.
Joe
The weakness of the Lift Pump is well documented. Please remember that there are thousands of RAMs out there that are running very well, thank-you, on the stock pump with no problems. That being said I have had mine replaced once, under warranty, at about 20K miles. However, I believe that some have overreacted to this problem. "Preporator" may have a fine product (by the way, his reply comes pretty close to running a ad in the forum) but I personally think that one can handle this problem without redesigning the fuel pump system. The single best way to make sure you don't have a problem is to install a FP gauge. There are some available for under $100, including the Westach I installed three years ago. This gauge let me know when the pump started to fail and I took the truck into the dealer (under warranty) to have it replace long before it finally failed. There are many on this site that have spent thousands modifying their rigs, and some that don't want to change from their stock setup. Regardless of where you fit in that spectrum, installing an inexpensive FP gauge should be one of your first priorities, not your last. Have fun...
"Gary, if I understand you, if the ball valve was working properly, I should be able to push against the ball and get it to move away from the seat and it should move back against the seat when I release it. "
YUP - you got it!
Doubt you fouled anything up trying to check it - your type of pump failure is relatively common.
As to the price of various fuel system upgrades - I suppose they are relative to an owners skill or ability to pay. Of course, even after paying the price, the owner STILL has to install the more expensive unit...
Sure is NOT difficult to fabricated your own pusher setup for about $100, depending on your skill with simple plumbing and electrical mods - and these setups DO seem to greatly eliminate fuel delivery problems and LP failures. Perfect, zero failures - no, but neither have the higher cost aftermarket setups so far on the market been, either - and pretty hard to establish hard failure percentages on the upper level/priced aftermarket due to the relative few of them installed compared to stock setups and those with various pusher or other LP substitutes.
But when I can buy and install *7* pusher setups like mine for the cost of *1* of the high-end jobbies, it's no contest...
Besides, THIS way I get to keep both arms - the firstborn, well I have mixed emotions on that score...
YMMV
YUP - you got it!
Doubt you fouled anything up trying to check it - your type of pump failure is relatively common.
As to the price of various fuel system upgrades - I suppose they are relative to an owners skill or ability to pay. Of course, even after paying the price, the owner STILL has to install the more expensive unit...
Sure is NOT difficult to fabricated your own pusher setup for about $100, depending on your skill with simple plumbing and electrical mods - and these setups DO seem to greatly eliminate fuel delivery problems and LP failures. Perfect, zero failures - no, but neither have the higher cost aftermarket setups so far on the market been, either - and pretty hard to establish hard failure percentages on the upper level/priced aftermarket due to the relative few of them installed compared to stock setups and those with various pusher or other LP substitutes.
But when I can buy and install *7* pusher setups like mine for the cost of *1* of the high-end jobbies, it's no contest...
Besides, THIS way I get to keep both arms - the firstborn, well I have mixed emotions on that score...
YMMV
Mallory 4307M was about $110 as I recall.
If you read BillK's text on the RASP they bypass regulator theirs too to 12 - 14 psi. They got their #'s from talking to Bosh.
With a bypass regulator you can put anything you want to try as a lp and still be able to set it where the VP wants the input.
If I change from the OEM lp to a FASS or Air Dog or whatever I am still going to bypass it at 12 psi I don't care if it puts out 15 psi or 115 psi. With the OEM lp it is about keeping the OEM lp from failing, with higher psi systems it is about keeping the VP input optimized.
Read the DTT forum about the RASP and see what they found out about VP input pressures.
Bob Weis
If you read BillK's text on the RASP they bypass regulator theirs too to 12 - 14 psi. They got their #'s from talking to Bosh.
With a bypass regulator you can put anything you want to try as a lp and still be able to set it where the VP wants the input.
If I change from the OEM lp to a FASS or Air Dog or whatever I am still going to bypass it at 12 psi I don't care if it puts out 15 psi or 115 psi. With the OEM lp it is about keeping the OEM lp from failing, with higher psi systems it is about keeping the VP input optimized.
Read the DTT forum about the RASP and see what they found out about VP input pressures.
Bob Weis
Wish I wasn't so lazy - I'd sure be interested in removing the bed off my truck and investigating just installing a stock lift pump with it's bypass valve disabled to remove that as a potential failure point directly into bottom of the fuel tank, and then running a full 3/8 inch ID line out to an adjustable external bypass valve and a good sub-micronic filter like my Frantz fuel filter. A bit of adapting for a suitable mount and fuel pickup directly at the in-tank pump. minimal extra gadgets and fittings - and TA-DAAA - what might be a simple and decently trouble-free setup, rather that the various pachwork, Rube Goldberg setups we are now wallowing in...
The heat generated by the pump should be suficient to keep fuel thin in colder weather - and anti-gelling aditives are a good idea in those situations anyway...
Who'll step up and be first?
The heat generated by the pump should be suficient to keep fuel thin in colder weather - and anti-gelling aditives are a good idea in those situations anyway...
Who'll step up and be first?
I personally know Stanadyne will keep diesel looking good at -13 degrees F. Without it diesel will wax up visibly at that temperature. I performed highly scientific glass jar testing this past cold season.
RJOL... you mention how one can handle the lift pump problem without redesigning the fuel pump system. But you didn't mention how to actually handle it. Handling it means (to me) a new pump or a modified system if your pump goes dead. Putting a gauge on it just tells you when it has failed. A gauge does not help fix anything and it does absolutely nothing to stop or slow the problem. I'm all for gauges but they only give you data.
Gary... I don't know if I'm ready to throw my pump in the tank just yet
RJOL... you mention how one can handle the lift pump problem without redesigning the fuel pump system. But you didn't mention how to actually handle it. Handling it means (to me) a new pump or a modified system if your pump goes dead. Putting a gauge on it just tells you when it has failed. A gauge does not help fix anything and it does absolutely nothing to stop or slow the problem. I'm all for gauges but they only give you data.
Gary... I don't know if I'm ready to throw my pump in the tank just yet
Just wondering,
Of the FRAME mounted OEM lp's what have the failures and the failure rates been in those areas that you can not have some influence on?, ie the motor itself and the shaft coupling.
What I'm getting to is if you do everything you possibly can, Stanadyne blue the fuel, clean the fuel, mount the pump low, keep the check valve closed, dielectric the connectors, you are down to motor failure or shaft connector failure.
Are there other failures I have missed?
What is the rate of motor or shaft connector failures?
Bob Weis
Of the FRAME mounted OEM lp's what have the failures and the failure rates been in those areas that you can not have some influence on?, ie the motor itself and the shaft coupling.
What I'm getting to is if you do everything you possibly can, Stanadyne blue the fuel, clean the fuel, mount the pump low, keep the check valve closed, dielectric the connectors, you are down to motor failure or shaft connector failure.
Are there other failures I have missed?
What is the rate of motor or shaft connector failures?
Bob Weis
"What is the rate of motor or shaft connector failures?
Bob, I suspect thay are quite low - but also doubt very many users go to the trouble to isolate exact reasons for failures. I too am curious about precise reasons for failures, since I potentially face the same issues - that's why I consistently ask guys to take theirs apart to see what it is that has failed inside their pumps. Of those that have failed, the bypass valve seems most frequent.
Bob, I suspect thay are quite low - but also doubt very many users go to the trouble to isolate exact reasons for failures. I too am curious about precise reasons for failures, since I potentially face the same issues - that's why I consistently ask guys to take theirs apart to see what it is that has failed inside their pumps. Of those that have failed, the bypass valve seems most frequent.
Okay, I'll try to explain my thought process on this. I believe that most of the failures of the LP can be detected by a good fuel pressure gauge. Unless you can show me that most of the LP have failed instantaneously (without a sign of a drop in pressure before the failure) I'll believe you can protect your investment with a gauge. I see my fuel pressures every day at all speeds and loads and I know what it should read at most given times. The cost of a gauge is less then $100. It's true, if you want to do some experimenting with other pumps, locations, and hookups, you can modify your fuel pump system so it provides a constant pressure to the VP44. You can also spend hundreds of dollars buying someone elses technology. <font color=red>You will still need a gauge to tell you if it is working</font>. If your the type of guy/gal that likes to use your RAM as a test bed for all manner of mods, then have at it. Just remember that, when you modify the stock system you are your own warranty station. With that in mind, have fun...
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