Full Load Fuel Adj. - "Old School" you out there?!

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Hey gang, I need your help once again.

This weekend I attempted to adjust the FULL LOAD FUEL DIAPHRAGM/PIN per Dave Fritz's instructions along w/ posts "89-93 VE pump adjustments" & "Super hot pre 93" with limited success. I have already turned up the Power Adjustment Screw a few weeks ago.

Please help me in understanding the VE44 pump better. I can see the 'witness' marks on the eccentric pin where the Action Pin makes contact. From which direction/location does the action pin come in from? Is it in the fore/aft direction related to the centerline of crankshaft & pump? If so, does the Action Pin contact from the front or rear of this centerline? If the factory setting is 12:00, is this parallel or perpendicular to this c'line.

I see nothing when I peer down the bore of the pin/diaphragm. Can the engine be started with this assembly remove to observe the action pin in operation or will this damage the pump?

All of my adjustments have netted negligible results. I'm still getting 14 psi of boost @ 950 max (5th gear/empty) on the pyro w/ a Banks "Stinger Plus" (save your money!) consisting of 14cm2 wastegated housing, 3 1/2 " exhaust/muffler & a K&N. I don't feel I'm getting enough fuel into the engine for it to work it's magic.

The truck has 143,000 miles on it w/ regular maintenance & has performed consistantly, just not spectacularly. I have made an appointment at my local diesel shop (Dixie Diesel / Cummins mid-range certified) for a injection pump rebuild/enhancement & injector upgrade. Does anyone have any suggestions before she goes under the knife and I lay out $1500 plus for a new heart.

Insearch of 21psi+ boost! Thanks!

1992 D-250 4x4 5 spd. 3. 54 gears Banks "Stinger Plus" consisting of 14 cm2 wastegated housing, 3 1/2" exhaust/muffler, K&N, pyro/boost gages, 2 1/2" front suspension lift, 305/70R/16's

 

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Hello KEENO: I'll attempt to shed some light:
The eccentric tapered pin thats attached to the diaphragm is the FUEL DELIVERY RATE pin. Now from above, looking down at the pump, almost to the bottom of the bore that the delivery rate pin came out of, is the bore that the trigger or action pin rides in. The linear axis or centerline of the action pin is parallel to the axis of the pump drive shaft, or the engine crank shaft. The movement of the delivery rate pin (down with increasing boost levels) allows the action pin (which by internal spring pressure is contacting it) to contact the increasingly smaller diameter. This allows the action pin to move rearward, which increases the fuel delivery rate. As a note: according to my books, and Bosch injection manual, the "stock" or base line for the diaphragm position is 12:00 as you look at the pump. In other words, the tick mark is toward the valve cover, for the normal setting. I have seen this not to be true on at least two trucks, one of which was on my own. If you look at the underside of the diaphragm, and can see where the eccentric would push the pin in deepest toward the front of the pump, that is the LEAST delivery rate setting. Consider that 12:00. I've found that rotating the diaphragm clockwise from that point to 3:00 is a good place to go. Depending on the injectors that are in, and your turbo boost, you may want to turn a little more.
If your star wheel (under the AFC spring) is set too high, the delivery rate pin won't move downward as it should with increasing boost levels. Turning the star wheel up (counterclockwise) increases the spring pressure, and slows the delivery rate.
In some of my previous posts I've related my experiences with installing a set of Ted J's 1st Gen Big A** injectors, gaining big power, and boost levels, and then realizing the original 154k pump couldn't increase the delivery rate because of a frozen or stuck action pin. My choice was not to tear down the original pump, but to install a new recon modified pump. Cost was about 1100 for the pump, turned up, bench flowed and calibrated, and worth every cent. I've been fairly low key in trumpeting the merits of the particular pump, injectors, and turbo combo, but I'll say again that the truck is STOKED.
I hope this helps.
With the mods. you already have, and a GOOD recon pump turned up, and some Good flowing injectors, you should see some boost bouncin' of the 30 mark.
Keep posting.
Best regards

 

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Old School is absolutely right on. I too hav ewent down this road, but my pump was in good shape and the more I adjusted the better it ran. I would try to adjust the star wheel clockwise if I were you. Turn it to bottom(clockwise) and then back out (counterclockwise)about 2-3 turns. Road test and see if she smokes any. If no smoke and slow acceleration turn clockwise. If too much smoke turn counterclockwise. I love mine. Still waiting on good weather to adjust wastegate to 30lbs. Mine makes @24 now. Going to adjust waste gate and probably fuel it more. Still gets great mileage 22+mpg.

later
Don


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1989 D 250 Ice blue met. 5 spd 3. 54, 135,000, Banks stage III powerpack straight exhaust, pump adjustments, still looking for more power
1999 3500 4x4 Chassis cab Emerald green ISB 5 spd 4. 10 K&N Filter straight exhaust 9 ft flatbed WARN fenderflares,Let the BOBMing begin!!! 275hp injectors on order, need gages and a VA box.

 

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Hey Old School & Big Don! Thanks for the info!

I appreciate your help and have followed the development of both of your trucks through this AWESOME website. TDR & it's members SMOKE!

The reason I have asked so many questions pretaining to the FUEL DELIVERY RATE PIN and the ACTION PIN interaction is that it appears that my action pin contacts the delivery rate pin at a single location ("point contact"). the witness mark on the delivery rate pin shows no sign of the action pin moving along the taper of the delivery pin as the diaphragm is depressed w/ increase boost. I have a point contact only! In my case, it sounds like I need to decrease (clockwise) the star wheel to allow for increased diaphragm/delivery pin movement. Is this correct? I currently have NO smoke at any RPM range. It puffs a bit upon initial start up, but nothing once running.

Are there any precautions I need to take in adjusting the star wheel? If I turn the wheel until it bottoms (CW) and then back out (CCW) are my adjustments repeatable to factory settings? Is the retaining clip placement critical? Sorry, for so many questions, it's just that my results have not been for the better! One more question, can the engine be started with the delivery rate pin removed to observe the movement of the action pin?

Old School, I'm aware of the successes you have had in working with Ted @JRE. I have contacted him thru email, but have yet to receive a response in reference to Big A** injectors & recon pumps. I'll follow up with a telephone call before I do anything with my local shop (Dixie Diesel). Dixie is recommending the Bosch 240 hp injectors & test bench setting my rebuilt pump to a similar 20%+ specification. They have quoted me $795. 00 for the rebuild &spec upgrade plus $145. 00 labor & pump timing. What are the benefits of mail ordering a recon. pump from JRE vs rebuilding/enhancing my OEM pump through test bench testing? I realize this might be a question of who is the most knowledgeable/experienced in this area.

Looking forward to your responses!

 

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Hello KEENO: I'd suggest turning the star wheel down (clockwise) in 1/4 turn increments untill you smoke, then back off (counterclockwise) till smoke is gone to your satisfaction, or smoke on under power, a black haze, not a black soot cloud.
Don't start the truck without the diaphragm pin. There is no reason to.
The retaining lock spring doesn't have to be removed, the star wheel will rotate with a small screwdriver gently placed and pried between the wheel and it.
Note the location of the wheel, mark it, and count any turns for reference.
Remember: Star wheel down=less spring resistance=increased fuel delivery rate.
Try calling Ted, as I know He's busy expanding his facility. Dixie Diesel is probably in your neighborhood, but you could probably mail you truck to Ted... hehe.
One advantage of my pump retrofit was that Ted and I decided on, and located a complete recon unit that his injection shop Medicine Man "massaged". We didn't want to dick around playing the replace this and maybe that at 154k.
HEY BIG DON: Good to see that you're making some smoke!! Keep that 1st gen cranked up.
Regards to all.

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'92 CUMMINS/DODGE 5SPD, 4WD 16cm2 turbo, mod. pump and injectors, max. flow exhaust, K&N... .
S. T. O. K. E. D. ... . accept no substitutions
www.turbodieselregister.com/memberimages/r0300343.jpg
www.turbodieselregister.com/memberimages/r0300341.jpg

 

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Hey Old School! Thanks again for the reply! I believe I'm starting to develope an elementary understanding how this VE44 works with your help & the help of others.

Last night I adjusted the star wheel 'in' (CW)to decrease the spring tension on the diaphragm. I believe the Fuel Rate Delivery Pin is actually moving now, as it was designed. I'm now realizing (finally) an increase in performance in the form of better "pull thru" and 3psi increase in boost(5th gear). I have adjusted the star wheel 'in' a full turn & 90 degrees of rotation w/ know visible smoke yet.

Next problem: Now that the fuel delivery pin & action pin are actually moving, I cannot remove the diaphragm/pin for further adjustment. This sounds like the exact condition you experienced w/ your truck due to the action pin sticking in the taper of the fuel delivery rate pin. With 143,000 on my truck I feel it's time for a recon or rebuilt pump (turned up, of course!) & enhanced injectors.

I talked w/ Ted yesterday and found him to be a very knowledgeable & honest person. He told me basically the same info that Big Don had received. He mentioned that I should let my local shop do the work of rebuilding & test bench setting my OEM pump and replacing the injectors w/ the 240hp version. He said he didn't want to deal with the hassles of mail order recon pumps due to core swap and other hassles. I never really got a price or enquired if he would be interested in supplying Big A** injectors for my project. I'll call him back today & see if there is any interest on his behalf.

I also talked with Lawrence @ Diesel Dynamics yesterday about recon pumps & his True Torque Injectors. He mentioned that he has (2) totally recon'd pumps sitting on the shelf, one @ +20% and the other @+30% for the cost of $1295. 00. This price seems a bit high compared to what you & others have paid. I mentioned in my other postings that Dixie Diesel said they would rebuild/enhance my OEM pump on the test stand for $800. 00. Is it worth $500. 00 for a recon pump over my rebuilt/enhanced pump? If so, which would you recommend 20% or 30%? Also, what have you heard about True Torque Injectors vs JRE vs Bosch 240hp Injectors. DD mentioned the True Torques are $500. 00 (-$100. 00 if I purchase w/ pump) compared to new 240hp injectors @ $63. 00 each. Are the advertise tip honing processes & injector matching realized in daily driving?

I guess you can have whatever you wish, it just takes a thick wallet!

looking forward to your thoughts.

 

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Hello KEENO: The pump on my truck is set 30% up on the delivery rate, and max fuel. It's ACCURATELY TIMED (advanced) to the engine.
I had Ted install a set of his big A** 1st Gen injectors because he's close, has assembled a great product, and stands behind his work. Oh yeah. . has good strong coffee at the shop too. His injectors are matched, and smooth. The daily driving makes you very aware of the power upgrade, and smoothness.
I've been aware of Diesel Dynamics thru the site, and they also appear to have a good product, with knowledge, and stand behind their products.
Dixie Diesel sounds good for the pump, But whoever you choose, have it installed, and spill port timed. Don't time it with the timing pin. It's not accurate enough.
Regards

 

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Hey Old School!

Well I believe I'm going to follow your lead and ante up for the 30% up delivery rate / max fuel recon. pump from Diesel Dynamics and some True Torque injectors. It appears as if there might be some room for $$$$ negotiations on the pump/injector combo. I have also chatted w/ Dixie Diesel further on setting the pump to the truck & installing the injectors. They have assured me that the installation is done using dial indicators and spill port timing. They mentioned they have been tinkering w/ Bosch VE pumps long before Dodge/Cummins started using them in this application. I appreciate all the advice & knowledge that has been past on to me through the TDR. It has given me the ability to speak intelligently about Cummins diesel's and understand what I need w/o expensive learning lessons. Thanks!

Old School, with your help I have got my current set up working as good as it's going to get. I have made all the suggested adjustments, fine tuned them & had fun tinkering. Even with the truck running better (maybe 25%) I'm still going to spring for the pump/injector combo!

Now where did I leave that credit card?

Thanks! Keeno

 

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KEENO: Sounds like the plan. You'll appreciate what that 12 valve will do with torque at lower RPMs.
Ease on the power, let'er grunt, and boost up. Your truck will be S. T. O. K. E. D.
Regards.

 

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Moving to the top for smokin, fuel, and turbo boostin'.

 

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let me throw a monkey wrench into all of this. went thru the process of turning the star wheel alittle at a time. wasn't getting any where finally removed the anti-tamper cover from top of diaphram housing & screwed bolt all the way in (basicaly bypassing the the spring pressure) runs like a bear now doing that & turning the fuel screw 2 turns I lost about 2 mpg

 

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Hello shakey: I read with interest your full in adjustment of the diaphragm stop rest screw, and in addition turning up the fuel screw two turns. On a correctly functioning pump, those two changes would tend to allow a lot of fuel from off-idle and up thru the pulling range. How's your smoke and EGT?
Regards.

------------------
'92 CUMMINS/DODGE 5SPD, 4WD 16cm2 turbo, mod. pump and injectors, max. flow exhaust, K&N... .
S. T. O. K. E. D. ... . accept no substitutions
www.turbodieselregister.com/memberimages/r0300343.jpg
www.turbodieselregister.com/memberimages/r0300341.jpg

 

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Movin' to the front row for Fuel question!

I would hate to have "Old School" have to type this much again.

Keeno

 

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Thanks KEENO!