FWIW! Pay Attention at the Diesel Pumps!!!

[Wingate]

This seems to happen more when fuel prices are really getting skyward. .

I just condemmed a low hour CR engine due to fuel bought from a gas station that was blended with gasoline!!!! This engine has less that 200 hours on it and lost all 6 injectors and the pump... customer replaced, and engine ran for awhile and shut down, would not restart. I get called out to troubleshoot and it "borderlines" the leak-off test... I started to cap a line to get the rail pressure up and noticed the gasoline smell when I pulled the line. Immediately pulled a fuel sample and sent it off. Ended up pulling the glowplugs and ran a poorboy compression check, two cylinders were galled!!!!!!! The fuel sample ended up with a flashpoint of less than 69 degrees and a boiling point of about 155 degrees...

Its not the first time this has happened... I have actually started filling my personal truck before and got a "wiff" of gasoline. . This from a major brand supplier at a well travelled store. I immediately stopped the pump and ran some out on the ground and watched it creep... . it spread fast and had a diesel and gasoline smell. . I hung up, got a receipt for my records, notified the clerk, and went down the road and filled it rest of the way at a different station. (and added some 2 stroke oil)

Its not just one station, one town, or one brand... . I spend alot of time on the road and fill up 1-2 times a day..... it just seems to happen more when fuel prices are thru the roof!!. . I guess fuel is getting blended to try and increase profits?????

When using un-familiar stations, PAY ATTENTION. !!!!. . It could be the difference between a trip to town and a trip to the dealer!!!!!. .

 

[SierraRam]

How did you remove the glow plugs for a compression check?

 

[HBarlow]

Wingate,

That's bad news.

Your discussion above is the first detailed analysis I've read of an engine that had been run on a mixture of gasoline and diesel. I know that has happened to lots of Dodge-Cummins owners and even a few TDR members over the years.

I don't remember anyone reporting it on a HPCR engine but I'm sure it has happened. Most seem to be able to eliminate the gasoline, refuel with diesel, and go on without apparent harm. Perhaps more damage has occurred than most owners realize but it doesn't show up until later.

An old friend and fellow transporter who lives in IL called me about three years ago to ask me what to do. He had a brand new '08 Ram and had delivered a trailer into Canada. He claimed a young fuel station attendant had pumped a tank of gasoline into his tank and he drove away. He drove a short distance before the truck began running badly and shut down. I think they siphoned or drained all the gas out and refilled with diesel and he continued on but I have wondered many times what damage was done to injectors, injection pump, and maybe even cylinder walls that would show up in early failure.

 

[Wingate]

How did you remove the glow plugs for a compression check?

Sorry, this was'nt on a Cummins CR engine... this was on a comparable sized Cat industrial HPCR engine... it has glowplugs. .

 

[Wingate]

Wingate,



That's bad news.



Your discussion above is the first detailed analysis I've read of an engine that had been run on a mixture of gasoline and diesel. I know that has happened to lots of Dodge-Cummins owners and even a few TDR members over the years.



I don't remember anyone reporting it on a HPCR engine but I'm sure it has happened. Most seem to be able to eliminate the gasoline, refuel with diesel, and go on without apparent harm. Perhaps more damage has occurred than most owners realize but it doesn't show up until later.



An old friend and fellow transporter who lives in IL called me about three years ago to ask me what to do. He had a brand new '08 Ram and had delivered a trailer into Canada. He claimed a young fuel station attendant had pumped a tank of gasoline into his tank and he drove away. He drove a short distance before the truck began running badly and shut down. I think they siphoned or drained all the gas out and refilled with diesel and he continued on but I have wondered many times what damage was done to injectors, injection pump, and maybe even cylinder walls that would show up in early failure.

Harvey, I think there were two main factors that caused the degree of damage... One was that while the Cummins is rated for 3xx hp, in reality, it rarely sees that load, and if so, its only for brief periods. This little engine is running max boost/max rail presure pretty much anythime its running... So wear being induced by a lubricity issue would be accellerated. The high cylinder pressures and temperatures mixed with volatile gasoline and its lack of lubricity would be a dangerous combination... Two, when the engine laid down and refused to run,(due to excessive wear of the fuel system components) new parts were installed and fired up again... No way of telling if the damage was already done by the time it shut down the first time, or the terminal damage was done after the parts replacement...

My B. I. L. put gasoline in his old 7. 3L PSD once while on a road trip in Kentucky. . After a tense 1-2 hours and several phone calls, I was able to talk him thru what to do... truck seemed to never have an ill effect from it. But, there again, he was running unloaded down Interstate and had only put 7-8 gallons into one tank...

 

[JUeckert]

When the new ultra low sulphur hit our town about 2 years ago, some stations were latter to add it to their supply than others. . The new fuel allways seemed to have more of a gas smell then the old. . I got real paranoid about this, too the point i carried a little jar in my truck to test the fuel[ visual/smell]. Had other friends with diesels take notice also, and ask if i had noticed the difference. . Never had issues with it, never had my brother tell story's of having wrecker calls in ref to this fuel. . One would be suprised however at how often people do fuel up with the wrong pump though! One reason why i wont buy a used diesel unless i know the owner/vehicle. .

 

[Ram4Sam]

Before I start pumping, I have always given the pump nozzle the sniff test with my nose. People who see this must think I'm a nut job but in twenty plus years with a Cummins, never had this problem.



Sam

 

[Bob Cochran]

I get the same weird looks doing the same thing.

Before I start pumping, I have always given the pump nozzle the sniff test with my nose. People who see this must think I'm a nut job but in twenty plus years with a Cummins, never had this problem.



Sam

 

[Wingate]

When the new ultra low sulphur hit our town about 2 years ago, some stations were latter to add it to their supply than others. . The new fuel allways seemed to have more of a gas smell then the old. . I got real paranoid about this, too the point i carried a little jar in my truck to test the fuel[ visual/smell]. Had other friends with diesels take notice also, and ask if i had noticed the difference. . Never had issues with it, never had my brother tell story's of having wrecker calls in ref to this fuel. . One would be suprised however at how often people do fuel up with the wrong pump though! One reason why i wont buy a used diesel unless i know the owner/vehicle. .

Seems like I noticed the same thing when ULSD first hit the market... ... .

 

[Deleted member 995608]

Before I start pumping, I have always given the pump nozzle the sniff test with my nose.



Sam

Also works well with women.

 

[mwilson]

Also works well with women.

Copy that.



Mike.

 

[The patriot]

Also works well with women.

:-laf:-laf:-laf:-laf:-laf:-laf

 

[bheiting]

When the new ultra low sulphur hit our town about 2 years ago, some stations were latter to add it to their supply than others. . The new fuel allways seemed to have more of a gas smell then the old. . I got real paranoid about this, too the point i carried a little jar in my truck to test the fuel[ visual/smell]. Had other friends with diesels take notice also, and ask if i had noticed the difference. . Never had issues with it, never had my brother tell story's of having wrecker calls in ref to this fuel. . One would be suprised however at how often people do fuel up with the wrong pump though! One reason why i wont buy a used diesel unless i know the owner/vehicle. .

Could the refinery have put the new diesel formulation in a tank previously used for gas? I was thinking the same thing - about distracted drivers filling up at the wrong pump!!

 

[jrmott]

Gas in Fuel

Funny thing here i put a full load of gas and diesel in my truck earlier this week it is a 2006 HPCR engine. I ran for two days on this stuff and only way i new there was a problem was that the companies Ford 6. 4 started smoking white and quit running on highway. was towed to dealer and they found gas in fuel system. we had been fueling from this tank for over a month and never had a problem. Well i pulled around 25 gallons from my tank and refueled with good diesel and hope no major engine damage has been done. The ford didn't fare as well 8,000. 00 dollars and ford is still down the tech was able to get it running and truck tried to re gen and caught on fire inside DPF filter and fire went all the way back to turbos and took them out also. Truck is now waiting on Turbos and company has to pay for some ones mistake or sabotage not sure just yet under investigation still. I sure am glad i have a Dodge Also found out today that we as a company is a glutton for misery they just purchased five of the new fords 4 one tons and one F-550 500 H. P. version will keep every body posted of the trouble they have when we get trucks delivered to office. I work for a Industrial cleaning company in Groves Tx. about 1. 50 hours from Houston Tx. we have worked the 6. 0 and 6. 4 and spend thousands of dollars trying to keep them on the road. We have some chevys which all have 160,000 plus that are for the most part trouble free i have to say chevy is way ahead of ford. My only complaint is my trans was burned up at 83,000 and had to have a major rebuild along with converter and hard parts to get it back on road. now almost 94,000 on truck running strong again. will have to wait and see if i damaged my motor or not. Love to TDR keep on putting out the great threads. very helpful to all. God Bless

 

[WMonroe]

Funny thing here i put a full load of gas and diesel in my truck earlier this week it is a 2006 HPCR engine. I ran for two days on this stuff and only way i new there was a problem was that the companies Ford 6. 4 started smoking white and quit running on highway. was towed to dealer and they found gas in fuel system. we had been fueling from this tank for over a month and never had a problem. Well i pulled around 25 gallons from my tank and refueled with good diesel and hope no major engine damage has been done. The ford didn't fare as well 8,000. 00 dollars and ford is still down the tech was able to get it running and truck tried to re gen and caught on fire inside DPF filter and fire went all the way back to turbos and took them out also. Truck is now waiting on Turbos and company has to pay for some ones mistake or sabotage not sure just yet under investigation still. I sure am glad i have a Dodge Also found out today that we as a company is a glutton for misery they just purchased five of the new fords 4 one tons and one F-550 500 H. P. version will keep every body posted of the trouble they have when we get trucks delivered to office. I work for a Industrial cleaning company in Groves Tx. about 1. 50 hours from Houston Tx. we have worked the 6. 0 and 6. 4 and spend thousands of dollars trying to keep them on the road. We have some chevys which all have 160,000 plus that are for the most part trouble free i have to say chevy is way ahead of ford. My only complaint is my trans was burned up at 83,000 and had to have a major rebuild along with converter and hard parts to get it back on road. now almost 94,000 on truck running strong again. will have to wait and see if i damaged my motor or not. Love to TDR keep on putting out the great threads. very helpful to all. God Bless

Does Ford offer a 500 hp F550? I thought they were 300hp.

 

[Wingate]

Does Ford offer a 500 hp F550? I thought they were 300hp.

To my knowledge... no... the F550 with the 6. 7L PSD is a 300 hp tuned engine... . just like the ones we have at work...



Not sure if they would give an F-550 400 hp... . could definitely cause some issues.

 

[Halfhand]

It can happen to you...it did to me...

On my way home last night I stopped at a new station on the interstate. It was late I was in a hurry. Had less than 1/8th of a tank. Filled up like always, jumped in and rolled for home. As I accelerated out of the parking lot I felt a change in the sound and a loss of power. It idled fine, thought maybe I stirred something in the tank. I start asking myself, "clog a filter? Chunk up an injector? Feels like I dropped a cylinder, maybe two? Don't like that shake. But its maintaining speed... I put the pedal on the floor, barely a difference, look back, no smoke, lack of fuel... I've got access to a shop just about 20 mi away. Sure its a little rough but I can still get it there... maybe. What was that? Near silence and no throttle response, but wait its running and pulling this hill. Only 10 miles to the shop, I got this. Running poorly, but running, it's after midnight, what am I gonna do sleep in the truck at the shop till morning? Home is just a few more miles, I can make it...

And I did.

Looked under the hood, no fuel leaks. Maybe pulling air. Roll the throttle by hand, there's a 1/4" of movement weird resistance, then free operation, I don't remember that... Did I drop an injector pump? Maybe just a lift pump... rolled all night wondering...

Morning

No restart. Racking my brain. I take a fuel sample, light green, looks OK, till I get to my nose... UUGGGHH!!! I pop in the cab and check the reciepts fully prepared to unleash one hellacious lawsuit against that station...

and there it is, the little white scrap of paper proving that I purchased 26. 05 gallons of Unleaded.



I'm currently accepting all suggestions on how to proceede with the re-evaluation of engine and injector pump. Thanks.

 

[The patriot]

What year/engine?

If it's a 12 valve, dump the tank & refill with diesel. You should be GTG.

 

[Halfhand]

Its a 12. Forgot to update signature... What about the pump? I'll change the filter and drop the screen. How do I purge the injection pump?

 

[The patriot]

I'd run 4-5 psi of air to the tank but first remove the primary filter screen.

After you got fuel to that point, install the primary then r & R the secondary.

I'd then crack the bleed screw and reapply air to the tank until no bubbles.

Now crank it up.

This is what I'd do. You'll get a lot of opinoins. I believe the P7100 should be OK. As should the engine.

JM. 02 YMMV dont take any wooden nickels etc. etc.