Garrett Powermax Stage 2 GT3782R Install/Review

[AH64ID]

It depends on who you talk to. I have talked to several cam builders who say the grinds are all the same. Some people say they changed in 04. 5, others say the changed during the 04 model year (305/250 motors). .

The piston design, timing, and 3rd injection event are the biggest difference in 03-04 vs 04. 5+.

 

[DRyder]

Wow guys, I didn't even know about the piston and possible cam differences. Talking to my cummins northwest representative (the parts guy) he only mentioned the injectors as the main difference between the 305 and 600. Again, just the parts counter guy not an engineer.

 

[AH64ID]

The injectors are only different becuase of the different pistons.

#ad

 

[ENafziger]

The injectors are only different becuase of the different pistons.

Good diagrams. Off the top of your head, do you know what spray angle the 04. 5 - 7 use vs 03 - 04. 5?

--Eric

 

[AH64ID]

I thought I had an email with that info, but can't find it... .

 

[ENafziger]

I thought I had an email with that info, but can't find it... . <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I actually had it in my info spreadsheet...

'03 - '04 8 hole 143°
'04. 5 - '07 5 hole 124°


--Eric

 

[AH64ID]

If your angles are correct, which I assume they are, then the above illustrations are mis-labeled. The first should be the '03-'04, not the '04. 5-'07. It would also make sense that the later engines would use the same pistons, as opposed to using a different piston on the '04. 5-'07 engines.

The illustrations are correct. 03-04 and 07. 5+ use the re-entrant design, while 04. 5-07 uses the non re-entrant design. . as depicted in the photo. 04. 5-07 in the Dodge is the only ISB to ever use the non re-entrant (at least that I can find).

Don't take the spray angle drawing for 100% gospel.

I found my notes

03-04: 143°
04. 5-07: 124°
07. 5+ : 146°

 

[rscurtis]

I eliminated my original post after I studied the illustrations again. You must have seen it for the few minutes it was available.

 

[AH64ID]

Haha... That will happen.

 

[Tinman]

I think I understand the re-entrant and non re-entrant design from your diagram (thanks, that really helped). But can you explain the difference particularly as it related to emissions and performances? So it looks like the best engine for performance in stock form (i. e. the least number of parts that are emission compromised) is a 03 or early 04.

 

[AH64ID]

The way I under stand it is the non-reentrant design doesn't allow for as high of peak pressure or temperature which results in a lower NOx production.

Yes the 03-04 has less emissions hardware and software.

 

[cerberusiam]

There really is no performance performance between the designs if the timing and injection events are setup and controlled correctly. The single biggest difference is the amount of abuse the crown of the piston will take under high power.



The re-entrant pistons have that nice little bump in the outside radius of the bowl where the 04. 5-07 pistons don't. Behind that bump is a ring groove. Take it away and there is not enough metal to handle the heat of high HP and and keep the heat soak out it. It literally blow torches a hole in the crown of the piston.



Go to a special HP piston that addresses the limits of the stock piston and the point is moot from a performance stand point.

 

[Tinman]

So the only real difference is that the 4. 5-. 7 piston wont' take as much heat as the others, correct? That's odd as the 4. 5-07 engines run so hot stock and are supposed to be able to "take the heat". Or is that just referring to EGT, not piston temps?

 

[AH64ID]

Hot EGT's on 04. 5-07 are from retarded timing, so they have lower piston temps than 03-04.

 

[cerberusiam]

So the only real difference is that the 4. 5-. 7 piston wont' take as much heat as the others, correct? That's odd as the 4. 5-07 engines run so hot stock and are supposed to be able to "take the heat". Or is that just referring to EGT, not piston temps?

Not exactly. The later pistons will suffer from heat soak sooner than the other types. Its a nuance but it is important.



Since the SOI is retarded on the 04. 5-07 and the 3rd event added, observed EGT's are higher but the effective burn time in the cylinder has been reduced. Within its operational range the gallery cooling is pretty efficient at keeping the piston crown cool, but, the limits have gotten tighter on how long that will function correctly. Revamp the timing to start the injection event sooner to handle lots of fuel and the heat soak in the cylinder increases.

 

[AH64ID]

Revamp the timing to start the injection event sooner to handle lots of fuel and the heat soak in the cylinder increases.

Which is why you can't use OEM EGT's as a safe setting anymore. As you add timing you ned to decrease the EGT limit.



This is what I use. TM1 is stock.



TM1: 1400 max cont, 1450 momentary

TM2: 1300 max cont, 1350 momentary

TM3: 1350 max cont, 1400 momentary

TM4: 1250 max cont, 1300 momentary

 

[Prairie Dog]

This is great information. Thankfully my temps never go over 1100 with the SJR (usually 1000 max. ) even with the stock exhaust system.

 

[Shadrach]

Getting back to turbos ( I did find the piston and inj info useful - thank you ) I want to upgrade my HY35W on my 03. I have been considering an S300 62/65/14 but I really like the coolant cooled idea. My exh manifold is stock although someone did a mild port and polish job on it. I do have a cam already and I ran a Smarty on level 3 this summer while towing the TT through the Rockies. It is currently set at stock as I was having some smoke issues, turned out to be the turbo. My tires are stock and I have 3. 73 gears with a Con OFE and a G56. I never hit over 23# boost stock and 26 with the Smarty. EGT's are pre turbo and I did hit 1300 on some steep hills on the Coquihalla in BC.

Any comments on the two different turbos? TIA Shad

 

[AH64ID]

Your 03 should have a HE341, not a HY35W, unless it's not stock.

An S300 in 62 should move approx the same air, but will probably spool a little slower and run a little more back-pressure due to the 14cm housing vs the . 89 in the Garrett.

 

[Prairie Dog]

Shad, you put a G56 in your 03?