Competition Gas engine builders can build a better diesel engine?

[RustyJC]

Nothing really special about GTL #2, other than being clear as water, doesn't smoke (in normal OTR applications), having 70 cetane and having exceptional lubricity. It's available at pumps in the US in a few select markets.

I agree, but read the blurb again - the race formulation uses this technology but doesn't appear to be what comes through the pump nozzle down at the corner stop-and-rob. There are several mentions of the "special racing diesel" and "the race formulation".



Rusty

 

[JasonCzerak]

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"smoke free diesel drag pickup!" Personally, I don't see it happening. IMO,... the argument of the Shell Audi R-10 Race Car is weak IMO because that race car was not putting out near the power some of these DHRA/NHDRA Pro-Street Drag Trucks are nor the top DHRA/PPA Sled Pulling Trucks.

observations... ... ... ... ... ...



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John_P

I'm sure that Audi is running that 50PSi boost the entire time around hte track expect in the pits. Once correct boost is there, to make 500hp you can be smokeless. Then + the filters to top that off.

 

[JasonCzerak]

some people just don't get it... just don't get the fact that we're not saying that torque is completely unimportant... obviously an F1 engine would have a heck of a time getting a 6,000lb truck moving off the line... we're saying that with a diesel application where torque is in abundance, horsepower should be the focus.



torque DOES NOT win at the drag strip... there are warm 12v trucks making 450hp and 1000-1100ftlbs of torque... I GUARANTEE you if you have two trucks of equal weight and aerodynamics, one being a 450hp/1100ftlb dodge and the other being a 600hp/1000tq Duramax, the Dodge is gonna get drug BAD.



big torque numbers mean nothing in these trucks... we already have more than we can really need... torque pulls stumps, breaks parts, and breaks traction... horsepower wins drag races, plain and simple!

What and how I understand HP and TQ is this:



HP and TQ win races, but only if the torque is there at the required RPMS, but no one sees and uses the TQ numbers all the time.



Is HP not from RPM and TQ? If you have 1100# at 1200rpm, but only 700# at 3000rpm your not making as much HP if you had 900#'s across the board (1200-3000) flat. And that's were you win the races, CONSISTENT non falling off torque.



This is the main difference between a 2nd or 1st gen and a CR motor!!! that's why that the Dmax in your example will win, it had that 1100# in twice the amount of RPM's (more HP) I'm sure. if not more



That's what these CR's do best. Most of the Big TQ number 2nd gens hit hard with the TQ WAY early but drop like they fell off a cliff after that.



You can only have HP if you have TQ, they go hand in hand and are very relative to each other.

 

[RustyJC]

You can only have HP if you have TQ and RPM, they go hand in hand and are very relative to each other.

There - fixed it for ya! :-laf



Rusty

 

[RustyJC]

Here's an example I've used in our company training sessions - our company builds large industrial engines and compressors.



An NFL wide receiver and an NFL offensive lineman challenged each other to a contest to see who could lift the most weight onto a table in one minute. The wide receiver was 6' tall and weighed 180 pounds, while the offensive lineman was 6'5" tall and weighed 325 lbs. The weight was an infinite number of 50 lb boxes, and the table was 5' tall.



The offensive lineman went first. With his superior strength, he would stack 5 boxes at a time (250 pounds total) and lift a set of these boxes up on the table every 10 seconds. This meant that, in 1 minute, he lifted 6 sets of 250 lbs of boxes (1500 lbs total) up on a 5 foot table - he did 7500 lb-ft (1500 lbs x 5 feet) of work in 1 minute - since 1 horsepower = 33,000 lb-ft/minute, he produced 7500/33000 = 0. 23 horsepower.



The wide receiver wasn't nearly as strong as the offensive lineman, but he knew he was much quicker and faster. Therefore, he would lift the 50 lb boxes individually, and he lifted one 50 lb box onto the table every 2 seconds. This meant that, in 1 minute, he lifted 30 each of the 50 lb boxes (1500 lbs total) up on the 5 foot table. Just like the offensive lineman, he did 7500 lb-ft of work in 1 minute and produced 0. 23 horsepower.



The offensive lineman equates to a high torque (the weight lifted each time) but low RPM (the number of lifts) engine. The wide receiver equates to a low torque but high RPM engine. Since horsepower is defined as the rate at which work is done (in this case, lb-ft per minute), both developed the same horsepower but went about it in totally different ways.



Rusty

 

[JasonCzerak]

Here's an example I've used in our company training sessions - our company builds large industrial engines and compressors.



An NFL wide receiver and an NFL offensive lineman challenged each other to a contest to see who could lift the most weight onto a table in one minute. The wide receiver was 6' tall and weighed 180 pounds, while the offensive lineman was 6'5" tall and weighed 325 lbs. The weight was an infinite number of 50 lb boxes, and the table was 5' tall.



The offensive lineman went first. With his superior strength, he would stack 5 boxes at a time (250 pounds total) and lift a set of these boxes up on the table every 10 seconds. This meant that, in 1 minute, he lifted 6 sets of 250 lbs of boxes (1500 lbs total) up on a 5 foot table - he did 7500 lb-ft (1500 lbs x 5 feet) of work in 1 minute - since 1 horsepower = 33,000 lb-ft/minute, he produced 7500/33000 = 0. 23 horsepower.



The wide receiver wasn't nearly as strong as the offensive lineman, but he knew he was much quicker and faster. Therefore, he would lift the 50 lb boxes individually, and he lifted one 50 lb box onto the table every 2 seconds. This meant that, in 1 minute, he lifted 30 each of the 50 lb boxes (1500 lbs total) up on the 5 foot table. Just like the offensive lineman, he did 7500 lb-ft of work in 1 minute and produced 0. 23 horsepower.



The offensive lineman equates to a high torque (the weight lifted each time) but low RPM (the number of lifts) engine. The wide receiver equates to a low torque but high RPM engine. Since horsepower is defined as the rate at which work is done (in this case, lb-ft per minute), both developed the same horsepower but went about it in totally different ways.



Rusty

Exactly!! In the end it's all about the gearing... .





500 FLYWHEEL HP honda vs 500 FLYWHEEL HP Diesel can get to the end of the 1/4 mile at the same time with the same 5000# dead weight.



Sure the Honda will be at 15,000RPM and go though more gears, but it can get the same amount of work done in the same amount of time as the diesel with less gears. .

 

[biggy238]

Which is a round about reason why I said what I did about the honda earlier.



I just don't understand why A huge torque rise can't be geared to produce speed, where as an import engine does the same with High RPM and deeper gears. This is the only thing i've never understood about the arguements here on this site. Mathematically A high torque engine and a high rev engine can yeild the same results.



Unless Greg is right and it all comes down to Rev Gain through a specific RPM band, which I understand to a point, but Can't directly translate in my mind how it affects a drag vehicle.



To me, the torque rise would affect the rate at which the engine can accellorate. This would mean that the torque would be the component in which a builder should focus, and build the vehicle around the RPM at which the engine can accellorate the quickest.



BUT, horsepower is mathematically a measure of an engines ability to sped itself at any given RPM, so in that respect, HP is what a builder should focus on.





I dunno.