Here is the clutch setup from my 85 crew with NP-435 4 speed non-OD transmission/360 gas. My Dad's 85 D100 with A833 4 speed OD trans/318 gasser is in need of a clutch. I wonder if this clutch and flywheel would work with the smaller 4sp OD trans. Also anyone know if this looks OEM? Thanks.
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Gasser clutch question
- Thread starter bgilbert
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The OEM clutch would not have a painted pressure plate. Someone has replaced the clutch in the CC.
The flywheel will not work from a 360 to a 318. The 360 is a external balence engine where the 318 is a internal balence engine.
That 833 OD trans your talking about will have a fine spline input shaft. I think that NP435 is a coarse spline input shaft.
Bill about the only thing I can suggest is to drop the 360 and NP435 into the other truck and sell me that 833 OD trans. I don't need the 318. :-laf
The flywheel will not work from a 360 to a 318. The 360 is a external balence engine where the 318 is a internal balence engine.
That 833 OD trans your talking about will have a fine spline input shaft. I think that NP435 is a coarse spline input shaft.
Bill about the only thing I can suggest is to drop the 360 and NP435 into the other truck and sell me that 833 OD trans. I don't need the 318. :-laf
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That there is one of those high performance Centerforce clutchs. I've been beating on one of those behind my 440 for several years now. My 435 has fine spline, and I don't remember the spline count. AS long as the spline count is the same, and it will bolt to the 318 flywheel, it should be good to go.
I'm pretty confident it will hold the massive amounts of power that the 318 will put on it.
Michael
I'm pretty confident it will hold the massive amounts of power that the 318 will put on it.
Michael
According to the 89 FSM and the cute girl at NAPA, the two transmissions have 23 splines
, does that sound right? NAPA also lists the same clutch part numbers for both engines, didn't say nothing about transmission
. Although both list two clutches, 10. 5" and 11". The sissy 1/2 ton 318 a833 combo surely would have the smaller clutch/flywheel yes? And the 1 ton 360 np435 combo should have a 11"? I guess we could always just get his flywheel resurfaced. But if this is a 11" clutch will it fit on the smaller flywheel? Or is the flywheel on these gassers the same, just different clutch discs and plates?
The ole wood hauler - 318, a833 and rocketship 2. 96 gears needs a good clutch:-laf. I keep telling him he's gonna be needing a beefier rearend or gears with all those bed full loads of wood.
, does that sound right? NAPA also lists the same clutch part numbers for both engines, didn't say nothing about transmission. Although both list two clutches, 10. 5" and 11". The sissy 1/2 ton 318 a833 combo surely would have the smaller clutch/flywheel yes? And the 1 ton 360 np435 combo should have a 11"? I guess we could always just get his flywheel resurfaced. But if this is a 11" clutch will it fit on the smaller flywheel? Or is the flywheel on these gassers the same, just different clutch discs and plates? The ole wood hauler - 318, a833 and rocketship 2. 96 gears needs a good clutch:-laf. I keep telling him he's gonna be needing a beefier rearend or gears with all those bed full loads of wood.
Thanks Philip. I'll pull it apart and see what I got. SGibson, I put the 435 in the DTR Classifieds: http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=5832&sort=1&cat=16&page=1.
A flywheel will be cast with extra weight in one spot, not welded on. On a auto the converter will have a weight welded to it.
When you pull the flywheel on both Bill. Compare the back sides (engine side). You will see a extra cast in round circle. This will be the extra weight need for the 360. If you put it on a 318 it will throw the engine out of balence.
When you pull the flywheel on both Bill. Compare the back sides (engine side). You will see a extra cast in round circle. This will be the extra weight need for the 360. If you put it on a 318 it will throw the engine out of balence.
clutch
Hi Bill,
The flywheels are the same between the 318 and 360 EXCEPT the 360 has 3 drill marks on the back of it for balance... Take your 318 flywheel up to your local balance shop and have it match balanced to your 360 flywheel. Or better yet measure the depth and placement of the holes in the 360 f/w you have and with the correct diameter drill ..... drill it up yourself. It will be close enough to work... If you want to be anal you can take the crank out and have the crank and flywheel/clutch balanced together. That will give you better balance that the factory did.
The spline count is the same for the 2 transmissions in question...
There were 3 different belhousing used 72 to 93 with the 318/360 engines in the light trucks. One for 833 with 10. 5" clutch . One for 833 with 11" clutch . And one for 435 and 445 with 11" clutch.
There was also a 12" clutch that bolted on the 11" flywheel as well
The clutch /flywheel you have looks to be an 11"... The orange pressure plate is a hot rod part. I can not remember the vendor... But have seen them before.
It might break up dads clutch linkage if he has the one with the bellcrank bolted to the floor pan... .
give me a callll if you need an further assistance. I have lots of gas parts in my stash... . The trans you really should put in it is the NP 445 . 2nd choice is the 435... the 833 od kind of sucks the ratio's were too wide
Hi Bill,
The flywheels are the same between the 318 and 360 EXCEPT the 360 has 3 drill marks on the back of it for balance... Take your 318 flywheel up to your local balance shop and have it match balanced to your 360 flywheel. Or better yet measure the depth and placement of the holes in the 360 f/w you have and with the correct diameter drill ..... drill it up yourself. It will be close enough to work... If you want to be anal you can take the crank out and have the crank and flywheel/clutch balanced together. That will give you better balance that the factory did.
The spline count is the same for the 2 transmissions in question...
There were 3 different belhousing used 72 to 93 with the 318/360 engines in the light trucks. One for 833 with 10. 5" clutch . One for 833 with 11" clutch . And one for 435 and 445 with 11" clutch.
There was also a 12" clutch that bolted on the 11" flywheel as well
The clutch /flywheel you have looks to be an 11"... The orange pressure plate is a hot rod part. I can not remember the vendor... But have seen them before.
It might break up dads clutch linkage if he has the one with the bellcrank bolted to the floor pan... .
give me a callll if you need an further assistance. I have lots of gas parts in my stash... . The trans you really should put in it is the NP 445 . 2nd choice is the 435... the 833 od kind of sucks the ratio's were too wide
bgilbert said:
mysteryman said:
You aren't a kidding. Talk about wide. It was the first Dodge that I fell in love with
, then sold to my Dad. He used to hate them back in the 70's and 80's. After driving it for a couple years he's a follower and now after riding in my 91. 5 auto he wants a Cummins/automatic, as he calls it. Thanks for all the excellent info. I think this clutch is gonna go on the market then. Dad is gonna have to go to NAPA:-laf. He's not like me, he doesn't have 3 trucks to drive. When we do something to it, we have to have it done today. No taking it apart then waiting on parts etc. So I don't think I'll pull it apart to compare flywheels etc.
SG, I'll send you a pm.
Mysteryman.
Bill is wanting to use the 360 flywheel on a 318. Not 318 to 360 change.
SGibson all 318's no matter if they are cast or forged cransk are internal balenced, same with the 273's and 340's. The 360 was the one odd ball engine that Dodge threw out there external balenced in the small block line.
Bill is wanting to use the 360 flywheel on a 318. Not 318 to 360 change.
SGibson all 318's no matter if they are cast or forged cransk are internal balenced, same with the 273's and 340's. The 360 was the one odd ball engine that Dodge threw out there external balenced in the small block line.
Philip said:
One tiny detail, the cast crank 340s were external also. I think they were the 71 and 72s.
Travis. .
Not all of them. I have dealt with 3 cast crank 340's. 2 of them were internal balenced. The third one was a factory goof up. It was stamped 340 on the front of the block. But it was a 360 engine. I took that one apart to make sure what it was. It like to shook the car apart when I started it with a 318 flywheel on it. :-laf
My 73 Dodge performance manual for LA series doesn't say anything about cast crank 340's being external eather.
gas cranks , balance , flywheels and torque
Here's the scoop
1) ALL, 273/318 LA engines internal balance. both CAST AND FORGED CRANKS
2) All, 360 LA engines external balance, all had cast cranks
3) 1968 to mid 72 340 LA internal balance , had steel cranks
4) late 72 and all 73 340 LA had external balance with cast cranks
340 was dropped in 74 and replaced with the 360 in the hot rod cars. .
273,318, 340 and 360 flywheels ,dampers and torque converters
are not interchangeable as far as balance goes. .
Yes they will all bolt in place of one another but the balance is different between them !
Another sad note is that not all of the flywheels ,dampers and torque converters were identical even for a given engine! Each production run was different...
Yes there was a blueprint spec for weight offset for each given engine.
But on the assembly line is never quite worked out that way. . each run of cranks was a little different !
For example: If you were to order a NEW 340/360 engine from Chrysler. It would ALWAYS come WITH either a flywheel or a torque converter. This was because we KNEW that the new engine would be out of balance and or SHAKE
if the customer used his OLD flywheel or torque converter on the NEW engine !
Yes you can switch them around and get away with is a lot of times. The balance can be off quite a bit before it shakes you to death. . But it in not a good plan...
There are 2 ways to really solve the balance problem in the field.
1) Remove the crank, bolt the flywheel to it . Have them balanced together.
This works fine for manual trans and is cheap...
2) Remove the crank, have the auto trans crank balanced internally. They will use Mallory metal slugs driven into the crank counter weight to do this. Then use a 318 T/Q which is neutral balanced. .
The reason I say this for the auto trans is because you can not balance the crank with the T/Q bolted to it ! You will never find anyone out there that will be able to offset balance the T/Q properly to match your external crank...
We had LOTS of problems in the field with external balance from people replacing flywheels and T/Q's. .
YES you can get away with doing many things incorrectly... .
But what I printed above were the facts for those that are interested in getting the best or correct results. .
Those that are cheap, lazy, or think that they know more than we did.
Then by all means just bolt any of the 318,340 or 360 parts together. LOL
All the holes should line up but some of the earlier 318's used their own flex plate... external balance engines had one hole offset...
I know the solution I mentioned above is not exactly what everyone wanted to hear.
It's a lot of trouble but it does make for a very smooth running engine and saves the front pump bushing in the trans. . Happy balancing.
One last note, In my stash of parts I have a few of the prototype 4 inch stroke cranks from the performance program for the 360 and a few of the
legendary 318 -3 solid steel forged Truck cranks I will never use... .
We got 412 ft lbs @ 3850 rpm out of a 360 that had the 4 inch crank in it. .
The engine had 8. 1 comp. ratio , 2. 02/1. 60 valves , thermoquad carb/ cast iron intake... By the way..... when I speak of math. I am speaking in REAL figures in reality. . Not the fairy tales that were printed in the books by the marketing people ! And production NEVER seemed to go by the engineering blueprints back in the old days either...
Here's the scoop
1) ALL, 273/318 LA engines internal balance. both CAST AND FORGED CRANKS
2) All, 360 LA engines external balance, all had cast cranks
3) 1968 to mid 72 340 LA internal balance , had steel cranks
4) late 72 and all 73 340 LA had external balance with cast cranks
340 was dropped in 74 and replaced with the 360 in the hot rod cars. .
273,318, 340 and 360 flywheels ,dampers and torque converters
are not interchangeable as far as balance goes. .
Yes they will all bolt in place of one another but the balance is different between them !
Another sad note is that not all of the flywheels ,dampers and torque converters were identical even for a given engine! Each production run was different...
Yes there was a blueprint spec for weight offset for each given engine.
But on the assembly line is never quite worked out that way. . each run of cranks was a little different !
For example: If you were to order a NEW 340/360 engine from Chrysler. It would ALWAYS come WITH either a flywheel or a torque converter. This was because we KNEW that the new engine would be out of balance and or SHAKE
if the customer used his OLD flywheel or torque converter on the NEW engine !
Yes you can switch them around and get away with is a lot of times. The balance can be off quite a bit before it shakes you to death. . But it in not a good plan...
There are 2 ways to really solve the balance problem in the field.
1) Remove the crank, bolt the flywheel to it . Have them balanced together.
This works fine for manual trans and is cheap...
2) Remove the crank, have the auto trans crank balanced internally. They will use Mallory metal slugs driven into the crank counter weight to do this. Then use a 318 T/Q which is neutral balanced. .
The reason I say this for the auto trans is because you can not balance the crank with the T/Q bolted to it ! You will never find anyone out there that will be able to offset balance the T/Q properly to match your external crank...
We had LOTS of problems in the field with external balance from people replacing flywheels and T/Q's. .
YES you can get away with doing many things incorrectly... .
But what I printed above were the facts for those that are interested in getting the best or correct results. .
Those that are cheap, lazy, or think that they know more than we did.
Then by all means just bolt any of the 318,340 or 360 parts together. LOL
All the holes should line up but some of the earlier 318's used their own flex plate... external balance engines had one hole offset...
I know the solution I mentioned above is not exactly what everyone wanted to hear.
It's a lot of trouble but it does make for a very smooth running engine and saves the front pump bushing in the trans. . Happy balancing.
One last note, In my stash of parts I have a few of the prototype 4 inch stroke cranks from the performance program for the 360 and a few of the
legendary 318 -3 solid steel forged Truck cranks I will never use... .
We got 412 ft lbs @ 3850 rpm out of a 360 that had the 4 inch crank in it. .
The engine had 8. 1 comp. ratio , 2. 02/1. 60 valves , thermoquad carb/ cast iron intake... By the way..... when I speak of math. I am speaking in REAL figures in reality. . Not the fairy tales that were printed in the books by the marketing people ! And production NEVER seemed to go by the engineering blueprints back in the old days either...
Philip said:
Last edited:
Yes Phil you are kind of correct...
There were a few different flywheels . . The 11"/12" one is the same for the 318,360,383,400,440... Most all the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks had this flywheel...
There were several smaller flywheels used over the years for the 1/2 ton trucks that had the 3 spd trans or the 833 4 spd
The flywheels that had dual patterns for the pressure plate were mostly aftermarket. . We did use a few dual pattern when supply ran low in the middle of a production run but not many. I also seem to recall that there was a clutch supply problem on the half tons and that called for the redrilling of a bolt pattern... Not sure I willhave to ask a friend and see if he remembers .
Did you know that there were actually a few different crank flanges on these engines as well ??? It is unlikely that any of those will show up in the adverage guys truck though. So I did not mention them either...
On this forum I will be speaking about the 72 to 93 trucks unless I say otherwise... Of those I will be mainly refering to the 1 tons or what is most commonly found or worth talking about...
Many of the fleet trucks were made to order for a given fleet. Often we would use parts on them that were not even in the parts books you would find at the dealer...
Another thing to note is that if we were in the middle of a production run and supply of a given part were to run out. We would bolt ANyTHING that we could get that would work to keep the line running. Then once the supply of the proper part would come in we would resume production with the correct part. .
There were supposed to be notes put in the parts books telling when we did this. . But too often it did not get done...
In the 60's and 70's this was done far too often. . And Chry was not about to tell everyone about all their little oop's es... .
You guys would have major heart burn if you really knew all the bs that went on at the plants back then... .
Like . . ,ya know all those little crosses and strange symbols that you see on a lot of the engine parts???? Guess what... ... . They mean something. they were not for decoration... Most of them were codes for factory screw ups in the part you would be looking at...
Like over sized lifter bores or over sized cylinders or welded clyinder heads. .
Things that were to cover up major screw ups in production and fix a given part so it could be used... LOL
I remember those nightmares quite well !!!! I lost plenty of sleep on them
One little screw up many of you know about is the infamos "#53" cracking block ... And lets not forget the "KDP" Those were ones that Cummins found out about a little late ! Cummins has more than their share of cover ups to confess to also...
I think I may be giving too much information here... ???? LOL
Please do bring it to my attention if I ever leave anything out or happen to
have a CRS moment. I am wrong from time to time. Or my memory may have been incorrect. I do have most all the tech. data sitll in my file cabnets however to refer to... Besides that there is always an exception to every rule. . I will be the first one to admit when I make a mistake if it is pointed out to me..... The most important thing is that the tech info posted here is correct. . It will be stored here in this data base forever I hope...
One of the reasons I post it is because I am hoping that it will remain here
for future generations after I am gone.
I know I have watched many of my friends that worked on the diesel project
take everything they knew to their graves with them...
The first gen trucks really were the last and the height of a era...
I know that the 2nd and 3rd gen guys think that they are all that and a bag a chips. But they really do not know what they have missed...
If any of the 2nd and 3rd gen guys ever rib any of you 4x4 owners. All you need to say is " real 4x4's do not use coil springs on the front axle"
Or "real trucks do not have plastic bumpers"
There were a few different flywheels . . The 11"/12" one is the same for the 318,360,383,400,440... Most all the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks had this flywheel...
There were several smaller flywheels used over the years for the 1/2 ton trucks that had the 3 spd trans or the 833 4 spd
The flywheels that had dual patterns for the pressure plate were mostly aftermarket. . We did use a few dual pattern when supply ran low in the middle of a production run but not many. I also seem to recall that there was a clutch supply problem on the half tons and that called for the redrilling of a bolt pattern... Not sure I willhave to ask a friend and see if he remembers .
Did you know that there were actually a few different crank flanges on these engines as well ??? It is unlikely that any of those will show up in the adverage guys truck though. So I did not mention them either...
On this forum I will be speaking about the 72 to 93 trucks unless I say otherwise... Of those I will be mainly refering to the 1 tons or what is most commonly found or worth talking about...
Many of the fleet trucks were made to order for a given fleet. Often we would use parts on them that were not even in the parts books you would find at the dealer...
Another thing to note is that if we were in the middle of a production run and supply of a given part were to run out. We would bolt ANyTHING that we could get that would work to keep the line running. Then once the supply of the proper part would come in we would resume production with the correct part. .
There were supposed to be notes put in the parts books telling when we did this. . But too often it did not get done...
In the 60's and 70's this was done far too often. . And Chry was not about to tell everyone about all their little oop's es... .
You guys would have major heart burn if you really knew all the bs that went on at the plants back then... .
Like . . ,ya know all those little crosses and strange symbols that you see on a lot of the engine parts???? Guess what... ... . They mean something. they were not for decoration... Most of them were codes for factory screw ups in the part you would be looking at...
Like over sized lifter bores or over sized cylinders or welded clyinder heads. .
Things that were to cover up major screw ups in production and fix a given part so it could be used... LOL
I remember those nightmares quite well !!!! I lost plenty of sleep on them
One little screw up many of you know about is the infamos "#53" cracking block ... And lets not forget the "KDP" Those were ones that Cummins found out about a little late ! Cummins has more than their share of cover ups to confess to also...
I think I may be giving too much information here... ???? LOL
Please do bring it to my attention if I ever leave anything out or happen to
have a CRS moment. I am wrong from time to time. Or my memory may have been incorrect. I do have most all the tech. data sitll in my file cabnets however to refer to... Besides that there is always an exception to every rule. . I will be the first one to admit when I make a mistake if it is pointed out to me..... The most important thing is that the tech info posted here is correct. . It will be stored here in this data base forever I hope...
One of the reasons I post it is because I am hoping that it will remain here
for future generations after I am gone.
I know I have watched many of my friends that worked on the diesel project
take everything they knew to their graves with them...
The first gen trucks really were the last and the height of a era...
I know that the 2nd and 3rd gen guys think that they are all that and a bag a chips. But they really do not know what they have missed...
If any of the 2nd and 3rd gen guys ever rib any of you 4x4 owners. All you need to say is " real 4x4's do not use coil springs on the front axle"
Or "real trucks do not have plastic bumpers"
Philip said:
My favorite, "real trucks do not have plastic bumpers"
But lets give the devil his dues on production. Not many folks understand the pressure of keeping the line up. And I seem to remember that Chry had some finance problems as well. In retrospect, it is amazing that Chry was the one who did the diesel (nearly) right. A seventeen year old platform drafted into service never intended. And right wrong or indifferent, there will be first gens on the road as long as there is fuel.
And just maybe after Robin has gone to the big salvage yard in the sky, some conglomerate (or the US govt) won't screw up TDR.
James
But lets give the devil his dues on production. Not many folks understand the pressure of keeping the line up. And I seem to remember that Chry had some finance problems as well. In retrospect, it is amazing that Chry was the one who did the diesel (nearly) right. A seventeen year old platform drafted into service never intended. And right wrong or indifferent, there will be first gens on the road as long as there is fuel.
And just maybe after Robin has gone to the big salvage yard in the sky, some conglomerate (or the US govt) won't screw up TDR.
James
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
