Good news Cp4 to Cp3

[TFucili]

I disagree that it was solely a bean counter decision!

To me, it was a design decision by the fuel system engineers for Cummins! I believe that the CP3 fuel pump as designed for current production use would not meet the fuel pressure requirements when the new 6.7L HO Cummins was introduced with all of the design changes in 2019. This is why there is a CP4 fuel pump that produces higher fuel pressure as compared to the older CP3 fuel pump design. As a by product, which all manufactures do is to redesign a component for cost reduction since the profit margins are low when they sell this finish component to a higher Tier manufacture of a finish product. Say an engine and or a transmission or some other item. Also a "B10" life is applied to the engine, which allows a component to fail before it reaches maturity. So, say Cummins builds 100,000 engines a year for world wide production that would mean 10% of the engines could experience a failure of some type.

Now you also need to realize that BOSCH is a foreign corporation and I believe the design team is in Europe! also. So, all preproduction testing of the CP4 was done in Europe using European materials and vehicles for their tests. Another issue that I have experience with foreign design components; is the application engineers first response when an item fails when using this item in the "US" is "Will It Does Not Fail In Europe". So, the corporations in the "US" need to convince them that there is a deign issue with their component when used in the "US."

Just Saying.

All valid points. But there are already bolt-on, emissions compliant CP3 conversions available, so I think the CP3 is up to the task. I have dealt with foreign companies, and I get that, as well. If they relied solely on Euro testing, and did not test here, and in the real world, then they are INCREDIBLY STUPID, sorry to say. I stand by the bean-counter reasoning. We can agree to disagree in gentlemanly fashion

 

[EDankievitch]

Guess you all don’t remember the Dalmer days. The attitude back then was our product is superior your maintenance is inferior. Europe company’s still have that attitude.
That said I’ll go with the Bean counters.

Save $50 on 100,000 units that’s a nice boost of profits for a board member Profit sharing program. Even if 10% fail before warranty is up they way ahead.

The CP3 is proven. And can be made to meet the higher demands. Hell most of us will never use that full 1000 ft/lbs of power. Even then the short burst will not out run a standard CP3 . The pump just costs more.

We have the technical abilities to make a product last almost forever. But if we did they wouldn’t sell very many. Planned obsolescence just make it last as long as the warranty. Most will trade it in before the loan is fully paid off.
Sad but that’s the world we choose to live in.

 

[GTroyer]

Don’t be so secure on the CP3’s
My close friend has a ‘07 with a lil over 45,000 on the clock .. he rarely drives it .. anyway his CP3 exploded when he was towing .. I mean totally exploded , parts through the housing and such .. his total repairs was a bit over $10,000.00 and took almost a month.
So the CP3’s have their problems too
I had just purchased my new truck right before this happened . Just gives me a less than fuzzy feeling.

 

[TFucili]

I'd take the bet on a CP3 all day long.

 

[robert31]

All valid points. But there are already bolt-on, emissions compliant CP3 conversions available, so I think the CP3 is up to the task. I have dealt with foreign companies, and I get that, as well. If they relied solely on Euro testing, and did not test here, and in the real world, then they are INCREDIBLY STUPID, sorry to say. I stand by the bean-counter reasoning. We can agree to disagree in gentlemanly fashion

Only thing is those pumps are modified as a 10mm stroker. I suspect that with future upgrades Ram plans, I don't think the unmodified CP3 will meet emissions now or into the future.

 

[Jim W]

All valid points. But there are already bolt-on, emissions compliant CP3 conversions available, so I think the CP3 is up to the task. I have dealt with foreign companies, and I get that, as well. If they relied solely on Euro testing, and did not test here, and in the real world, then they are INCREDIBLY STUPID, sorry to say. I stand by the bean-counter reasoning. We can agree to disagree in gentlemanly fashion

TFucili, You need to realize that a normal design cycle from concept to production usually takes from 6 to 7 years, if it does not get recycled. So, my question to you? Was the CP3 fuel pump available at the start of the concept phase? To me that would be around 2012 or 2013 time frame and I bet Bosch had no plans to increase the delivery fuel pressure to the injectors using a CP3 pump. Bosch had designed a higher pressure fuel pump the CP4, that has been in production for sometime, my wife's Jetta has one. So, the Bosch application engineer offered this pump design a CP4, as an option to the concept team at Cummins., in my opinion.

Now along comes 2019MY and the reliability question has raised it's ugly head on American made diesel engines! Duramax (GM) has drop the Bosch fuel pump from their diesel engine from what I can find out. Who knows about Ford? With FCA and Cummins in my opinion, has put some pressure on Bosch to resolve this issue in a timely manor hence the band-aid fix of the CP3 fuel pump.

In my humble opinion there will be a different deliver fuel pump on the Cummins engine in the future. It still maybe a CP4 but the pump will have been resigned for improve reliability. Neither Bosch or FCA or any other manufacture wants the warranty dollars or high failure rate of their end product.

 

[robert31]

TFucili, You need to realize that a normal design cycle from concept to production usually takes from 6 to 7 years, if it does not get recycled. So, my question to you? Was the CP3 fuel pump available at the start of the concept phase? To me that would be around 2012 or 2013 time frame and I bet Bosch had no plans to increase the delivery fuel pressure to the injectors using a CP3 pump. Bosch had designed a higher pressure fuel pump the CP4, that has been in production for sometime, my wife's Jetta has one. So, the Bosch application engineer offered this pump design a CP4, as an option to the concept team at Cummins., in my opinion.

Now along comes 2019MY and the reliability question has raised it's ugly head on American made diesel engines! Duramax (GM) has drop the Bosch fuel pump from their diesel engine from what I can find out. Who knows about Ford? With FCA and Cummins in my opinion, has put some pressure on Bosch to resolve this issue in a timely manor hence the band-aid fix of the CP3 fuel pump.

In my humble opinion there will be a different deliver fuel pump on the Cummins engine in the future. It still maybe a CP4 but the pump will have been resigned for improve reliability. Neither Bosch or FCA or any other manufacture wants the warranty dollars or high failure rate of their end product.

Ford still uses the pump with fewer failures after the 2017ish model year (when they added a much bigger water separator). Ford for 2020 MY is running their pump at 36k psi to achieve power and emissions. A CP3 can’t run that high. Bosch/Cummins has already made changes to the pump that are currently going in new trucks in the form of symmetrical lobes.

 

[cerberusiam]

A CP3 can’t run that high. Bosch/Cummins has already made changes to the pump that are currently going in new trucks in the form of symmetrical lobes.

The CP-3 is not capable in its current design form to meet the pressure requirements, aftermarket has already proven its can meet those requirements with modifications.

It is not a matter of technical design, simply put it is a cost measure. The CP-4 is cheaper to build due to less moving parts, that is its greatest claim. Warranty cost are less of a concern due the onus to not pooch the pump with contaminations is now on the owner, and, standard warranty is finite in both time and miles. Production costs stretch well into the future and directly affect the bottom line selling price.

The update to the pump was an NVH change, the asymmetrical lobe design was causing issues at certain rpms and load. The design was changed to a symmetrical lobe design like the CP-3. No indication if they addressed the real issue of the lifters and shaft metallurgy.

The Gen III hemi has been in production for 15 years and the issues with lifters in a standard build STILL exist, there is no incentive to fix something that will last the warranty period more often than not.

 

[Bob4x4]

Revisiting this discussion,the FCA training centers 6.7 update class says Cp3 will be back on the 2021 models.The guys doing PDI’s say it’s true

 

[Regcabguy]

Revisiting this discussion,the FCA training centers 6.7 update class says Cp3 will be back on the 2021 models.The guys doing PDI’s say it’s true

That was a nice truck you had.
Your present one isn't bad either.

 

[Bob4x4]

The 94 is doing fine in the hands of my old apprentice

 

[robert31]

Revisiting this discussion,the FCA training centers 6.7 update class says Cp3 will be back on the 2021 models.The guys doing PDI’s say it’s true

Several Facebook photos confirm.

 

[UglyViking]

Does anyone happen to have any inside details from FCA/large dealers on what the future is for us CP4 owners? Curious if there will be a TSB or recall on the CP4. I'd imagine that FCA's primary focus right now is getting 2021s on dealer lots especially with the way the market is but curious to know what the future holds for us current owners.

 

[DonFitzwater]

Does anyone happen to have any inside details from FCA/large dealers on what the future is for us CP4 owners? Curious if there will be a TSB or recall on the CP4. I'd imagine that FCA's primary focus right now is getting 2021s on dealer lots especially with the way the market is but curious to know what the future holds for us current owners.

I’d be a lot happier with a CP3 under the hood.

 

[Wayne M.]

I’d be a lot happier with a CP3 under the hood.

That’s one step closer toward me ever getting one.

 

[dieselshadow]

I’d be a lot happier with a CP3 under the hood.

I thought you were liking your potential time bomb?

 

[AH64ID]

Does anyone happen to have any inside details from FCA/large dealers on what the future is for us CP4 owners? Curious if there will be a TSB or recall on the CP4. I'd imagine that FCA's primary focus right now is getting 2021s on dealer lots especially with the way the market is but curious to know what the future holds for us current owners.

I see it as very unlikely that there will be a recall. The procedure to swap them over and maintain OEM parts is quite expensive, so for FCA it’s just cheaper to repair the ones that fail than to modify them all.

 

[Bug Out]

It would be nice if they gave CP4 owners a option of upgrading to the CP3 for a few bucks..

 

[AH64ID]

It would be nice if they gave CP4 owners a option of upgrading to the CP3 for a few bucks..

They do have that option, trade it in on a 21.

Honestly if you’re that concerned about the CP4 I’d go trade it while it’s worth the most it ever will be.

 

[Cummins12V98]

I’d be a lot happier with a CP3 under the hood.

Hey it’s only money. Trade yours in.