Got Cold This Weekend - Plug in the Block Heater

[jhenderson]

Go outside the next time it’s 20 degrees and put a temp gun on the bottom of the oil pan of a truck that’s plugged in. The temp transfer is negligible at best. That’s why they make adhesive backed pan heaters.

 

[Wiredawg]

My truck came with a front cover for cold weather operation... I need to read up on how to use it, although we don't get too many really cold days down in the San Antonio area. When I was stationed in Maryland, my 3500 sat outside all the time. I plugged it in with a timer for two hours prior to startup. it sure was nice to get heat quickly. Ron

 

[KATOOM]

Go outside the next time it’s 20 degrees and put a temp gun on the bottom of the oil pan of a truck that’s plugged in. The temp transfer is negligible at best. That’s why they make adhesive backed pan heaters.

Well there's an obvious difference in oil pressure so I'm guessing without using the temp gun that as negligible as that may be...its something. And yes, if you're in arctic weather conditions then yes you'll need heaters on just about everything including the batteries.

 

[Too Tall]

I think I've still got an email from Cummins not recommending more than 10-15 minutes. I asked them about this when I got my 2014. It's in my 2014 diesel supplement ajso.

The problem is extended idling reduces combustion temp which causes a varnish like coating on the combustion chamber, injectors etc... this can harm the engine. So the sooner you get up to operating temp the better. This is in also my 2014.

As far as idle to warm up, Below is from the diesel suplement in my 2014, maybe your manual is different.

"If temperatures are below 32°F (0°C), operate the engine at moderate speeds for five minutes before full loads are applied"

Personally, I'd use the block heater at those temps. But, I see nothing that says let the engine idle for warm up.

I always,though it was well accepted since multi vis oil came about that engine will warm up faster if operated at moderate speeds and thus, less oil contamination etc etc

But hey, it's your truck, do as you want. I won't argue. I respect everyone's opinion.

 

[JR]

Other than the ALL THIS a qsb is essentially the same as an ISB. Quite a statement. Reverse our positions and tell me what your reply to that statement would be. Keep in mind your reply’s when I showed literature direct from Cummins on the Jake Brake. Plugging in doesn’t warm the oil, which is far more important than my comfort.
The primary literature for the operation of our trucks comes from Ram. Do I need to show you AGAIN what it says?

Do you really want to compare 15 year old literature on a non emissions engine to something published on an SCR equipped 6.7 printed less than a year ago?
Which recommendation do you feel is more relevant to OUR engines? If you can answer without your pride getting in the way.
And now you want to change topics to oil. Sorry to tell you, but so long as your using the correct viscosity for your ambient temps Its a non issue. Since they don't have oil pan heaters but do have coolant heaters, which do you suppose they feel is more important, and why?

 

[jhenderson]

Just as I suspected. Do as I say, not as I do. How dare I point out we have no reason to look up QSB info or point out they’re not the same motor. Let alone refere to our primary source for owner info. If you’re in conditions that REQUIRE block heater ( -20 Fahrenheit according to the owners manual) you should be running 5-40 synthetic. Since I’m not, I run 15-40. I’m more concerned about good oil temp than I am about good coolant temp as long as my windows are clear. Oil temp comes from run time. Now tell me, with your off road equipment that can’t be plugged in, do you allow it to idle for a few minutes to stabilize temps or do you just jump in and go to work when it’s 0 Fahrenheit?

 

[AH64ID]

When I drove my truck on a more regular basis I would use a winter front and block heater most nights below 40°. The block heater was on an outdoor timer for 90 minutes. I used it for my comfort and not starting, as these cold blooded motors take a long time to give off any heat.

The block heater does have a noticeable effect on oil pan temps as there is a visual difference in oil pressure building when the block heater is used.

The winter front also has a very big impact on coolant and underhood temps. Without the winter front the motor never got as warm in a 90 minute window and the batteries got much less residual heat and I could hear a difference in cranking speed when the temps dip below 10°F.

I've also started at -20°F without a grid heater, or plugging in and on weak batteries. She wasn't happy, but started.




On the topic of idling, it's doesn't matter if it's an ISB, QSB, QSC, QSX, etc... it's a DIESEL, and they don't like extended cold idling, never have and likely never will.

The exhaust brake will increase soot loading of oil when used on a cold motor, I've seen the UOA's. Luckily Cummins doesn't apply full back pressure on the 6.7 with the VGT when cold and this will help avoid soot loading.

Either way, extended cold idling is defined as 10 minutes by Cummins for ALL of their engines regardless of their turbo/EB or application. With some ESN's you can go online to quickserve and read it for yourself, it's all there in black and white.

Several years ago, long after the 6.7 came out, quickserve would list owners manuals for ESN's of pickups installed in Dodge/Ram vehicles and it was the SAME owners manual as the QSB.


Sure the Ram owners manual might have some different verbage but I prefer to take info from the engine manufacturer, afterall the Ram manual tells you numerous times to monitor oil pressure when they have decided to not even offer you a real oil pressure gauge.

Why do you think idle hours are now shown on the EVIC?? It's so it's easier to show owners they idle too much, before they had to do it with whatever scan tool worked for that MY.


My idle time is relative to my load. If it's just the truck and I'm not starting out uphill I start it, monitor oil pressure, let the motor stabilize and then drive it easy. If I'm towing, headed uphill, or any other application with a higher power requirement I'll let it idle, at 1000-1100 rpms EB OFF, for 3-5 minutes and then start driving. The ECT hasn't come up much, but it's not stone cold and generally above 100°F within a mile. It's all about long term habits.

One of the things I've reprogrammed with my MM3 is the profile for the motor to go into automatic fast idle. I increased the max temp, and decreased the time. If it's cold I want the rpms increased to reduce wet stacking.

 

[JR]

I’m more concerned about good oil temp than I am about good coolant temp as long as my windows are clear.

Cummins does not agree with you. In no literature do they ever mention minimum oil temp for full engine load, but coolant temp is mentioned all over the place (160*F). Naturally, oil temp climbs somewhat parallel with coolant but obviously they have placed coolant temps as a top priority, and I would wager this is directly related to pistons/rings expanding and seating properly and everything stabilizing. All the same reasons why idling to warm up is not recommended, and using the block heater is nothing but beneficial.

The exhaust brake will increase soot loading of oil when used on a cold motor, I've seen the UOA's

This has long been my belief based on applications in everything but a pickup. Literally every single 6.7 I've operated has a VGT, and every single one of them only very marginally restricts the turbo to warm up. You almost dont even hear the difference in idle, where as the Ram has a very distinct change in tune when the EB is applied at high idle. I've operated a dozen or better machines with a 6.7 and none of them restricts the turbo like in the Ram trucks.

 

[Newsa]

When I drove my truck on a more regular basis I would use a winter front and block heater most nights below 40°. The block heater was on an outdoor timer for 90 minutes. I used it for my comfort and not starting, as these cold blooded motors take a long time to give off any heat.

The block heater does have a noticeable effect on oil pan temps as there is a visual difference in oil pressure building when the block heater is used.

The winter front also has a very big impact on coolant and underhood temps. Without the winter front the motor never got as warm in a 90 minute window and the batteries got much less residual heat and I could hear a difference in cranking speed when the temps dip below 10°F.

I've also started at -20°F without a grid heater, or plugging in and on weak batteries. She wasn't happy, but started.




On the topic of idling, it's doesn't matter if it's an ISB, QSB, QSC, QSX, etc... it's a DIESEL, and they don't like extended cold idling, never have and likely never will.

The exhaust brake will increase soot loading of oil when used on a cold motor, I've seen the UOA's. Luckily Cummins doesn't apply full back pressure on the 6.7 with the VGT when cold and this will help avoid soot loading.

Either way, extended cold idling is defined as 10 minutes by Cummins for ALL of their engines regardless of their turbo/EB or application. With some ESN's you can go online to quickserve and read it for yourself, it's all there in black and white.

Several years ago, long after the 6.7 came out, quickserve would list owners manuals for ESN's of pickups installed in Dodge/Ram vehicles and it was the SAME owners manual as the QSB.


Sure the Ram owners manual might have some different verbage but I prefer to take info from the engine manufacturer, afterall the Ram manual tells you numerous times to monitor oil pressure when they have decided to not even offer you a real oil pressure gauge.

Why do you think idle hours are now shown on the EVIC?? It's so it's easier to show owners they idle too much, before they had to do it with whatever scan tool worked for that MY.


My idle time is relative to my load. If it's just the truck and I'm not starting out uphill I start it, monitor oil pressure, let the motor stabilize and then drive it easy. If I'm towing, headed uphill, or any other application with a higher power requirement I'll let it idle, at 1000-1100 rpms EB OFF, for 3-5 minutes and then start driving. The ECT hasn't come up much, but it's not stone cold and generally above 100°F within a mile. It's all about long term habits.

One of the things I've reprogrammed with my MM3 is the profile for the motor to go into automatic fast idle. I increased the max temp, and decreased the time. If it's cold I want the rpms increased to reduce wet stacking.

Doesn't at all surprise me that Ram/Cummins programing of VGT EB is less aggressive applying back pressure when cold. It is noticable when using ..the eb for braking. But i still find it hard to believe that the tiny bit of back pressure is significant compared to blowby caused by cylinder combustion pressure

 

[JR]

Doesn't at all surprise me that Ram/Cummins programing of VGT EB is less aggressive applying back pressure when cold. It is noticable when using ..the eb for braking. But i still find it hard to believe that the tiny bit of back pressure is significant compared to blowby caused by cylinder combustion pressure

It's not insignificant by any means. If it's strong enough to slow 10's of thousands of pounds what do you suppose it's doing internally? Yes it is less aggressive for warm up but regardless it is still back pressure, and is doing so at the most critical time - prior to ring seal.

If Cummins defines ANY cold idling beyond basic engine stabilization as detremintal, it can easily be understood that placing any additional back pressure on a cold engine is not favorable.

 

[AH64ID]

But i still find it hard to believe that the tiny bit of back pressure is significant compared to blowby caused by cylinder combustion pressure

You're missing what is actually happening in the cylinder during EB use for warmup.

The combustion event will generally have enough pressure to get the rings to seal during the power stroke when you're not applying back pressure. Sometimes when it's extremely cold that may take a few seconds as cylinder/combustion temps increase.

But when you apply backpressure you're getting reduced airflow, so the cylinder pressure is higher during all of the strokes. You're also leaving exhaust in the cylinder in the form of a EGR, and this reduces combustion temps,and increases soot production. Now all this soot is being left on the cylinder walls and during the compression/exhaust stroke the cylinder temp is lower and the rings aren't working as well as on a hot motor. This is when soot is pushed into the oil, and not on the power stroke. If you're not using the EB on a cold motor this doesn't happen.

 

[Newsa]

You're missing what is actually happening in the cylinder during EB use for warmup.

The combustion event will generally have enough pressure to get the rings to seal during the power stroke when you're not applying back pressure. Sometimes when it's extremely cold that may take a few seconds as cylinder/combustion temps increase.

But when you apply backpressure you're getting reduced airflow, so the cylinder pressure is higher during all of the strokes. You're also leaving exhaust in the cylinder in the form of a EGR, and this reduces combustion temps,and increases soot production. Now all this soot is being left on the cylinder walls and during the compression/exhaust stroke the cylinder temp is lower and the rings aren't working as well as on a hot motor. This is when soot is pushed into the oil, and not on the power stroke. If you're not using the EB on a cold motor this doesn't happen.

This does make sense. I sort of was wondering about if the back pressure would consustently be applied during parts of other strokes. I can see this happening except when the exhaust valves are closed.

Thanks John. As usual, excellent insight

 

[JR]

. I sort of was wondering about if the back pressure would consustently be applied during parts of other strokes

This rates right up there with -

Additionally, most farm equipment would not see freezing starts