2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Grid heater idea?

[Alphacowboy]

So, I know I probably am not the only one that hates it when the grid heaters kick on that it puts a huge load on your batteries. So, I was wondering, has anyone though about wiring in a cap to see if it makes a difference? For those who dont know what I am talking about is a Farad Cap, usually used in car stereo systems with large amps and bass speakers. Basicly, its a huge capacitor that can release its energy way faster then any batter can, so that you dont take that hit to the batteries and keep your 12v system at 12v.



Here is an example of what I am talking about... Tsunami Lite Wave PP912UM-CAP 1. 2-farad capacitor with blue LCD meter at Crutchfield.com



What ya think?

 

[2-ND TIME]

Grid heaters

Well they design the system to handle such load of about 220 amps. If you are wanting to stop them from cycling. Maybe put a switch in cct with the coil into the cab.

 

[DCreed]

how long does the discharge of the cap last?

 

[p-Bar]

those caps are very momentary, remember how long the grid stays on for 20 -30 seconds. If caps were the answer we would be using them instead of batteries. The grid heater was put in their for worse case scenario super sub zero temps which probably most of us will never see especially us on the left coast.

Just saw this thread:
https://www.turbodieselregister.com...had-coldest-start-how-did-go.html#post1871250

 

[DPellegrin]

The thing I'm having hard time understanding is your explanation of the operation of a capacitor vs. a battery. Lead acid batteries produce energy very quickly. In fact if they didn't you would have a big problem starting your engine. Where capacitors have an advantage over storage batteries is their ability to accept energy (current) quickly. Capacitors are much better at this than storage batteries. I'm not exactly sure how capacitors are used in the stereo system you reference, but my guess is they are there to absorb voltage spikes that are produced by collapsing magnetic fields that are characteristic of stereo systems?



Regards,

 

[Alphacowboy]

the more I am learning about this, I think its just an idea that aint going to work! but hey, it was at least a good idea! :-laf

 

[dseabaugh]

just let them cycle. if you don't like it, the relay is in the center of the firewall right under the rubber gasket at the hood. relay on the passenger side I think. drivers side relay is the fuel shut off 'pull to open' relay. There are 2 together.

 

[Missouri Mule]

dseabaugh, the grid (intake) heater relays are below driver's side battery.

The relay on the cowl (firewall) is the fuel heater relay and the fuel shut off solenoid relay.

You were half correct.

 

[drag racer]

Here's the best solution - get rid of it . Also look at the airflow restriction you can free up.
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I realize you guys in the colder climates might actually need these things in the winter, but you also might be surprised how cold it can be and still start the Cummins without them too. The guy that makes this billet spacer sez his truck starts at Lake Tahoe in the winter no problem.

 

[dseabaugh]

Mo Mule, thanks for the correction. I just replaced the full 'pull for on" fuel relay and I had an argument with a guy who told me the one beside it was the grid heater. i told him it was way to small for that, but didn't try to trace it down b'cause it was 20 degrees and already freezing my ***** off. He swore up and down that was th e grid heater. I couldn't figure out how you could have no. 5? wire on the heater and a lot smaller on relay unless maybe relay ran a soleniod??? $^ealer told me they could find where the pull on relay was for $61? per hour. didn't know otherwise. $35. to TDR and i've got an instant answer.

 

[p-Bar]

The thing I'm having hard time understanding is your explanation of the operation of a capacitor vs. a battery. Lead acid batteries produce energy very quickly. In fact if they didn't you would have a big problem starting your engine. Where capacitors have an advantage over storage batteries is their ability to accept energy (current) quickly. Capacitors are much better at this than storage batteries. I'm not exactly sure how capacitors are used in the stereo system you reference, but my guess is they are there to absorb voltage spikes that are produced by collapsing magnetic fields that are characteristic of stereo systems?



Regards,

In the stereo systems you are talking milliseconds of energy dispersed . How large do you think that cap bank would have to be for a heater grid? fill up the back of the pick up? I think if the caps were so great you would see them used on the hybrids not Ni-cad or li-ion

 

[DCreed]

the more I am learning about this, I think its just an idea that aint going to work! but hey, it was at least a good idea! :-laf

Thats how we learn! keep the ideas flowing and maybe, together, we'll get these trucks figured out!

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Mo Mule, thanks for the correction. I just replaced the full 'pull for on" fuel relay and I had an argument with a guy who told me the one beside it was the grid heater. i told him it was way to small for that, but didn't try to trace it down b'cause it was 20 degrees and already freezing my ***** off. He swore up and down that was th e grid heater. I couldn't figure out how you could have no. 5? wire on the heater and a lot smaller on relay unless maybe relay ran a soleniod??? $^ealer told me they could find where the pull on relay was for $61? per hour. didn't know otherwise. $35. to TDR and i've got an instant answer.

There are two relays, mounted on the driver side fender with #5 cable or whatever coming from the battery then on to the grids. Best solution for grid heater deactivation is to wire a DPDT switch in the cab and run the relay control wires to it. If you ever need the grids for startup just flip the switch on to have them cycle normally. Been planning to do that myself but just never get around to it.



I always "gasser start" my truck, just crank immediately without waiting for the grids, then I drove off within 30-45 seconds of idle time and quickly hit 20mph, turning them off for good.

 

[DieselDoghouse]

As has been mentioned Caps will NOT work because of the total Joules of energy needed. In subwoofer stereo systems they can deliver their millisecond duty cycle and then be recharged—no good for the comparative TREMENDOUS load of the heaters. As I see it if the rise/dip is a real problem then only solution would be isolate the batteries and run the truck from one and the heaters from another BIG battery. Not really worth it for the 3 minutes following startup that it occurs.

 

[DieselDoghouse]

BTW I thought the heaters weren't only for starting but to lower emissions during initial run—otherwise why have them cycling once the engines started??

 

[Tomscreek]

Best solution for grid heater deactivation is to wire a DPDT switch in the cab and run the relay control wires to it.

I've wanted to do this as well ever since I got this truck. I can't see the need for the heaters once it's started. So what is a DPDT switch?? Any more details on how to do this?

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

DPDT = Double Pole Double Throw, it controls 2 circuits with 1 toggle switch. Actually you need a DPST (double pole single throw), which is a simple On-Off switch controlling 2 circuits. A DPDT controls 2 circuits but the switch can be 3 position.

 

[rweis]

I read an old thread about lifting the relay grounds that it threw a ECM code thinking the grid heater relays were not functioning. As an experiment I disconnected the grid heater power leads from the battery and zip tied them out of the way.



It does not throw any ECM codes because the relays still have integrity and the ECM thinks they are function normally, just no battery power goes to them.



Lowest temp so far here has been 26*F and I got a little white smoke for about 15 seconds, but then it was fine. Batteries MUCH happier



No noticeable difference during driving.



Bob Weis

 

[SSolderitch]

Another bad thing about caps is that they look like a Dead short until charged. So the bigger the cap the longer the dead short. I don't like dead shorts across my batterys. Don't the grid heaters stay off above 69 degrees anyway? I guess the engineers know why 69 and they know more than me.

 

[tgordon]

As a little addition to what rweis said, for those of you concerned about splicing into the wires to the relays and throwing a code, you could install another set and have them energized manually before or after the OEM to prevent the power from getting to the grids. Just go to your local parts store and get a Solenoid for a lawn mower with a B&S engine, only $12-$15.



I have no idea how cold it gets in Taho during the winter, but I have started my truck as cold a -2 without being plugged in, and it took several cycles of the grid heaters, along with alot of smoke after words. Guess I need ot advance my timing some:-laf As to why the heaters cycle after starting I thought it was to get the engine warmed up faster and operating those would have a double affect, 1. warmer air in, 2. load on the engine wia the alternator.



I thought they didn't go on before starting at 60, and there are different cycles depending upon the outside air temp(No cycle after start, short and long after start) I don't know as I rarley let them kick out on there own, I'm not that patient, but I do know there is a large differance in how the engine runs before it gets warmed up and after so I usually let it idle a bit before I take off.