Hard starting and RH battery voltmeter

[3rdGen_to1stGen]

For the longest time my truck has been starting like clockwork you can almost count the number of cranks.
And the best few weeks maybe a month, longer the truck sits let's effort is to start sometimes the battery sounds like it's having a hard time sometimes the battery and the starter sound just fine like they're getting plenty of power but the truck has to turn over a bit more first.

If I stop at the gas station right up the road it starts just fine When I leave work it usually starts just fine sometimes just a little bit unusual but it's mostly pronounced when leftover night or when left over the weekend.

I was thinking maybe there was a ground or something on the positive side of the battery terminal or an amp draw and I am tracking that possibility. But this did give me thinking about some other stuff.

I would say maybe 8 months maybe 10 months ago I had a problem with the right hand battery was boiling because the crossover cable wasn't doing very good and as most of us know your voltmeter reads the left hand battery even though your alternator is connected to your right hand battery and the left hand battery is getting what it can via what must be a 6-ft crossover cable. I would have changing out the right hand battery positive post and then solved The problem and I was thinking of doing something similar to the left hand battery post because of how busy and overpopulated it is I just because over the years it's not in the best of shape. At any rate I have an edge CTS2 monitor as well as some EAS modules One of which I was going to use to read fuel pressure coming off of the lift pump and since it's a y harness I didn't have any plans for the other one so I figured why not read right hand battery voltage since it is not monitored and if left hand battery voltage reads crappy because of the crossover cable connection or what have you I'd like to see what's going on with the right hand battery it just seems convenient to me to do that. I spoke to edge a couple of times and they said that we're dealing with a 5 volt reference and they have no way of correlating voltages like that into the edge of monitor which seems kind of short-sided but whatever. Has anybody ever used a 5 volt reference sensor that can accept chassis voltage and turn it into something readable through a 5 volt sensor or am I just running some wires and rolling around with a multimeter or hooking up some kind of cheap voltmeter in the truck just for monitoring it which would really seem a shame because I have this pretty little TV screen that seems like it should be able to do that job but it can't or maybe it can if somebody else has figured out how.

Another note as far as the goodness of the batteries I live in a really hot state and it gets hot under the hood too I mean it's pretty early in the morning and my intake air temperature is already about 110.

This can't be good for batteries and I know that in time it's just time to change them out I've been using bulbs and batteries plus because they don't mess around they just give you your warranty they'll check your battery out the right of the road from me it's convenient and I've always been happy with what they deliver and if you coming for a warranty they will let you buy upward and pay the difference which is also cool.
They said the batteries are fine when they tested them but then again I also had them test them after a 40 minute commute home and after being on the trickle charger all day at work because I was a little bit worried about them. I also swapped the batteries from left to right. They didn't like the fact that the batteries were puffed out and neither did I but they said they checked out just fine I wonder how they would check out first thing in the morning.

Assuming I don't have something wild ground on the positive side of either one of my battery terminals or some amp draw going on that I'm not aware of I'm inclined to change my batteries out because you know I just have $500 burning oil in my pocket but I'm also curious could this have anything to do with the fact that my grid heater is original equipment or the grid relays? Perhaps it is not being all it can be? I would say just change the SOB I'd prefer if it wasn't there at all and the climate I live in even winter is pretty relaxed although I'm not planning on staying here at which point I will certainly want some kind of grid heater I just wish they sold something that wasn't so obstructive to air.

Any thought process you guys have on the matter is great I know there's more than one question buried in that monologue and I appreciate it.

 

[AH64ID]

If your electrical system is in good order there is no reason to monitor the voltages separately, as they will be the same.

You could do the same thing with a voltmeter with the truck at idle. Same voltage means your crossover cable is good, different voltage means it’s bad or loose.

I suspect there is hidden damage to the crossover cable, but that’s just a guess.

 

[3rdGen_to1stGen]

If your electrical system is in good order there is no reason to monitor the voltages separately, as they will be the same.

You could do the same thing with a voltmeter with the truck at idle. Same voltage means your crossover cable is good, different voltage means it’s bad or loose.

I suspect there is hidden damage to the crossover cable, but that’s just a guess.

I agree and I'm way ahead of you. I fixed the problem but I still wouldn't mind knowing what my number two battery is reading. I've attached a picture of a voltmeter that fits into a cigarette lighter if anybody knows somebody that makes something like this that also has a USB dongle so you can attach it to your car stereo that'd be beautiful but I can't seem to find one that does both.
When this originally happened, the problem was on the number two battery connector so I removed it and installed this connector which I find to be excellent. (Pics)
I'm not satisfied with the connector on the other side as it has some age on it and it's pretty wallard out so I will be going the same way
(Pics)
I have seen that they sell the crossover harness as well as the entire electrical harness kits but I find this battery terminal to be better because of how busy it is and how many different things connect to it I just didn't really pleased with it. I haven't really been able to find this cable without the standard connections already swedged on.

Regardless of how solid the electrical wiring may be I would still rather like to know what's going on with number two battery instead of just feeling really awesome about how tight my wiring job is. Nothing wrong with seeing the indications of a problem before you see it due to a failure or something screaming for uncle.

If I could do this off the edge with some kind of a 5 volt reference I would but I don't think there's a whole lot of information on that if I could do it with a cigarette lighter style gauge I'd be happy to but I'm having trouble pulling the trigger on that because there's no USB dongle on there for a data option which seems a bit thoughtless to me. I'm also trying to find a good place to find some bulk cable without the connectors attached for when I do the wiring.
I am never selling this truck (at least that's my story today) so changing out these cables due to the fact that they're 20 years old and I live in a humid environment and they're made of copper it seems worthy of consideration or at least I will have some cable already on hand or know where to get some.

So between the edge 5 volt reference in order to read number two battery, cigarette lighter style gauge that has a voltmeter and also a USB dongle, cable without connectors.

I am much obliged for it .

 

[Ozymandias]

If your electrical system is in good order there is no reason to monitor the voltages separately, as they will be the same.

You could do the same thing with a voltmeter with the truck at idle. Same voltage means your crossover cable is good, different voltage means it’s bad or loose.

I suspect there is hidden damage to the crossover cable, but that’s just a guess.

This ^^^^^^^ again.
As long as the crossover cable ans grounds are in order there will be no difference in voltage between the two, that is technically impossible.

 

[AH64ID]

This ^^^^^^^ again.
As long as the crossover cable ans grounds are in order there will be no difference in voltage between the two, that is technically impossible.

Exactly, if the issue is fixed it’s two batteries connected in parallel making one battery. Voltage is the same.

 

[3rdGen_to1stGen]

Yes you are technically correct, I admit. I will take care of that but now back to the hard starting thing. The hard starting was the real cause of this, the other stuff was just "along for the ride." Pretty sure I have my cable good and I will be

It is about a million degrees here in Tampa so, Unsure if there is a temp sensor assisting to control the grid heater but, I just went out with a voltmeter for as long as I could stand it in the sun and probed around to see why it takes a few more cranks than I am used to seeing.
Based on what I can see in the wiring schematic here is what I found so far.
+ terminal through both cables good continuity and reads battery voltage on the outboard posts they go to.
Inboard terminals of solenoids ring to the grid heater terminals, as well as everything else that is grounded. No voltage gets there or to the heater sides of either terminal.
Heater side terminals do not get battery juice when you turn the key on even though the battery side terminals are waiting.
The solenoids do not sound or feel like the are clicking when you turn the key.
Pulled the control leads from the bottom part of the solenoids and rang through the control coil. The aft one was 20 ohm and the forward one was something less but I do not remember.
Checked the rear ones: No voltage when you turn the key but the both ring to ground.
Checked the front ones: 3.5 volts when I turn the key. I guess that must be ECM voltage.

I guess if they are getting voltage and have grounds on the control side, and have battery voltage waiting on the battery side of the large post then and I am getting no click or volts on the heater side then either both solenoids are acting "bad" but in the same way? (weird to have 2 components fail at the same time without it being something common but maybe I do not understand something)
Maybe it is not getting something from the control side to work.
In either case, I guess I am not fully up on the grid heater, why it has 2 and what turns them on/off, because maybe that is the problem. Is 3.5 volts control voltage and would one dead one make the other die? 2 solenoids and 2 grid heater posts for some reason. I guess I more reliable schematic for the 2004.5 24v HO 2500 quad cab would help along with enough info for fault isolation.

Sorry if I am coming off a bit dumb but I just started learning the system and ringing it out during my 30 minute break. all I could figure.

 

[AH64ID]

The grid heater isn't commanded on when the temp in the intake manifold is above 66°F.

 

[3rdGen_to1stGen]

The grid heater isn't commanded on when the temp in the intake manifold is above 66°F.

That much is good to know.
When I turn the key and I get 3.5 volts to those solenoids is that control voltage? Would I be getting the right amount of voltage to the control posts if the temperature was beneath 66°?
The censor that it is reading that from are we talking about the intake air temperature sensor that is downstream of the air filter and just upstream of the turbo?

The reason that I'm still trying to track this problem is mostly because my truck generally starts for me after about 4 or 5 cranks religiously. It seems like the starter is cranking a bit more than that from time to time but maybe it's the 97 to 100° weather we're enjoying down here in Tampa right now and the intake air temperature that I'm reading from my edge unit which reads directly off the OBD port is hotter still even before the engine has been running.

The air dog seems to be pushing good pressure, I always treat my fuel every time I fill up, not long ago I had the head redone and my injectors were all flowchecked and the engine runs great so I don't suspect any issues there.
It's possible I'm being too sensitive about with my truck is doing. What I didn't want to do is wait for it to start getting cold or drive it somewhere cold like I sometimes do, and then find out that it's not working. Even in Tampa it's cycles for several seconds and then it will cycle on and off for a bit like it sometimes does before you get going. Assuming the grid heater system is 100% good,
Maybe it's time to change the fuel filters on the airdog.

 

[AH64ID]

I’ve never measured control voltage, but the grid heater is 100% not your problem. I’ve started in -25°F without one and don’t recall it taking 4-5 rrrr-rrr-rrr’s

When I tuned my 05 I had the grid heater shut off above 32°F and below that it didn’t really come on until below 10°F, which happens to be the temp that Cummins says a starting aid is needed. Above 10°F the grid heater is primarily an emissions device, this isn’t a Powerstroke and they don’t need heated unless it’s COLD.

Long cranking on a 5.9 HPCR is generally injectors, but can also be batteries or a slow starter. With good injectors, batteries, starter, and no grid heater a 5.9 HPCR will fire before the first rrrr is complete. Fastest starting diesels I’ve ever been around.

I never wait for my WTS light to extinguish, even in sub zero temps. It’s just not needed. The only time it does a full cycle is on remote start where I can’t bypass it.

 

[Ozymandias]

Just basic - the grid heater does not help with starting at any temperature above sub Zero.
It is there only for emissions reasons.
That's why many of us disabled it at all, it is an unnecessary load for the battery and charging system most of the time of the year.

So, what ever causes your hard start - it isn't the grid heater, you can stop investigating in that direction.

Edit: John was faster.

Edit 2: and it won't be the fuel filters as long as you can normally drive and floor it while doing so.

 

[3rdGen_to1stGen]

I know some things I am not troubleshooting. So there os a possibility we are starting lean or not approaching the required rail pressure to queue up the engine for one anyway. What sort of things should I start with eliminating before I start getting bummed out over new injectors?

Background is a smarty tune is on the truck and the Edge CTS gives me a decent amount of OBD feedback but neither is exactly a scan tool. Anything I can try first I will.

ETA- batteries seem fine and starter does not seem weak but I guess I can use a big battery charger/200A jump starter. We have one at work. If it starts differently that tells me something. I have one at work.
Starter is 3 or 4 years old. Doesn't make it good, less likely maybe.

It's not easy finding a good mechanic who's not trying to figure out where my spark plugs are. I finally found a good one but he had to pack up shop shortly after he finished my head gasket. I guess the ironic part there as I was thinking about sending my injectors out for an overall exchange with some upgraded nozzles. Oddly blowing that kind of money would have been the better way to go it seems. And I thought restraint was supposed to be responsible.

 

[Ozymandias]

First you do is disconnect the FCA and see if it starts faster, then we proceed.

It will sound funny but no harm is done to the engine if you run it for 20-40sec. that way.


Aside from that it would be a premium if you could monitor rail pressure while cranking.

 

[Tuesdak]

ETA- batteries seem fine and starter does not seem weak but I guess I can use a big battery charger/200A jump starter. We have one at work. If it starts differently that tells me something. I have one at work.

It won't tell you a thing as the clamp connections for the "useless" 200A aren't good enough to get 200A. Further with 1200-1600 CCA available from batteries 200A is like a rounding error anyway. Just separate the batteries and load test them. Don't try burning up the ECM cranking with high voltage from that charger. Most places don't understand they have to separate the batteries from each other otherwise the good battery will "pass" the tests. Remove the ground from just one battery for load testing.

The bad battery will continue to drain and murder the good battery with the engine off. If your hot climate batteries are over two years old generally they are cooked to ruin anyway. Although I suspect the cable problem hurt one of them.

As you already had cable problems you should clean the battery to engine grounds and be looking for internally corroded cables from wicking up battery acid.

 

[3rdGen_to1stGen]

Before I change these injectors a lot of the data that I've been getting is leading me to the Cascade overflow valve on the CP3.

I think I know where it is it's somebody please post and illustration of the pump and precisely where this thing is so I know for sure also if there's any guidelines you guys want to share regarding any kind of torque specs, installation grease or what have you I'd appreciate it.

Also if anyone has a link to a good service manual for the engine that would have stuff like this in it digital or otherwise I would invest in that.

 

[sag2]

The cascade overflow valve is part of the CP3 pump and is only available with a new pump. Failure is really rare.

 

[3rdGen_to1stGen]

First you do is disconnect the FCA and see if it starts faster, then we proceed.

It will sound funny but no harm is done to the engine if you run it for 20-40sec. that way.


Aside from that it would be a premium if you could monitor rail pressure while cranking.

I can monitor rail pressure, with the CTS3. Although not inaccurate, I think the reading would be more sensitive with a scan tool. I was hoping this app would work. Is there an alternative to AlfaOBD for my 2004.5?

 

[3rdGen_to1stGen]

The cascade overflow valve is part of the CP3 pump and is only available with a new pump. Failure is really rare.

Understood. Geno's sells the Cascade valve and instructions provided as how to change. Considering the longer it sits is directly proportional to how many cranks it takes and it starts fine even when just sitting for the night but not over a weekend, a gravity test was recommended. I jacked the aft end of the truck as high as possible and she cranked per norm after 3 days no driving. This points to possible Cascade valve as a cheap and simple possibility that was considered worth trying, but was also told not to get my hopes up and was directed to a rail test kit and AlfaOBD for actual rail vs. commanded rail pressure and nozzle return tests. One you can rig up a kit but both are highly benefited with a way to read through the OBD port. He thought I was an 06 for some reason, I hope I have DIY with an app similar to Alfa on my 04.5 o I will have to rely on someone with a scan tool. The intermittent nature of it also makes that less convenient as I am sure it will be on it's best behavior when Mr. "I have a scan tool" is around per my experience as an Aircraft guy; never broken when a tech is around.

 

[Tuesdak]

Quit fixing it till it's broke! I suggest the extra cranking may be the ECM looking for the position of the engine before it fires. It needs to see the gap in the timing wheel behind the crank damper and this could take one engine rotation. Likely it needs to see the camshaft so it could take two engine rotations.

My 2003 MT would randomly take longer than 2 revolutions to fire. New injectors, because two failed, didn't change it. I suggest you are chasing your tail on a issue that isn't fixable. Some would call it normal. I have see other threads where this extended cranking is considered normal esp. on MT equipped pickups. As long as it starts...

Have you addressed the battery cable problem and have that fixed? It won't solve the problem, however, that needs to be fixed.

 

[Ozymandias]

I can monitor rail pressure, with the CTS3. Although not inaccurate, I think the reading would be more sensitive with a scan tool. I was hoping this app would work. Is there an alternative to AlfaOBD for my 2004.5?

Only AutoEnginuity or the Snap-On from what is know, aside from wiTech of course.
I use AutoEnginuity on mine.

 

[3rdGen_to1stGen]

Quit fixing it till it's broke! I suggest the extra cranking may be the ECM looking for the position of the engine before it fires. It needs to see the gap in the timing wheel behind the crank damper and this could take one engine rotation. Likely it needs to see the camshaft so it could take two engine rotations.

My 2003 MT would randomly take longer than 2 revolutions to fire. New injectors, because two failed, didn't change it. I suggest you are chasing your tail on a issue that isn't fixable. Some would call it normal. I have see other threads where this extended cranking is considered normal esp. on MT equipped pickups. As long as it starts...

Have you addressed the battery cable problem and have that fixed? It won't solve the problem, however, that needs to be fixed.

This morning it would not start after around 20 cranks. Rest. Then it started. Yes I am purchasing the cable kit but, the batteries are good now and starter sounds nice and crisp and the turnovers are powerful and sound normal and fast.
Abates when ran, harder to start when sits, gravity tested sat 3 days with no issue, Cascade valve already on order. Gonna try it because I have it but, I do understand what you mean. Maybe it is not a problem. If I can find out by looking at a few parameters when she is trying to start, I can determine problem or no problem.

I'd like the ability to run my own scan tool either way.