Archived hard starting

[ralphr]

I changed my lift pump after changing my filter and it would not start. everything was fine until I took a trip down to Miami and it became very difficult to start! in fact I ended up buying new batteries, (stock were just shy of 3 years).



I have change the filter again, removed the new lift pump found the three screws on the top plate loose retightened, replaced all 10 sealing washers and still wheather cold or hot or anything in between she cranks and cranks before starting. No check engine light and as far as I can tell no codes. I think the problem is air in the fuel, not much but enough to cause the hard start problem.



I have two questions, has any one else seen this, and have I missed something, (there is NO LEAK anywhere that I can tell either feeling wet or smelling the diesel.



Question two, unless I find something real quick I am going to have o call the stealer, does anyone have any good or bad things to say about dealers in Central Florida, (Orland Dodge is my closest dealer).



I appreciate any and all responses this weakend, thanks in advance.

 

[LSMITH]

Low fuel pressure or high fuel pressure will also cause hard starting. If your overflow valve is blocked you will have a hard time starting it with too much pressure.



Do you have any fuel pressure readings?

 

[ralphr]

pressure readings

with old pump, 10 - 12 at idle 6 @ 2500 then I don't know.

New pump 18 at idle 12 - 14 @ 2500 and 8 @ wot, seems in line with "normal"???

 

[ralphr]

sorry should have added this to the pump pressure and/or the original. the truck runs great when it runs, with the new lift pump it will wind up to about 3400 rpm before I feel the de-fuel, before it peaked at 3200 rpm. it runs smooth, and on the highway, (at least the indicator tells me) that I have picked up 2 MPG's, (18. 4 versus 16. 1), because of the start problem I have not verified the readings. thanks again for any help.

 

[LSMITH]

Ralph, 18 at idle seems a bit high. I would pull the return line banjo and test to see what pressure it opens at, should be 10-12PSI where it starts to open and fully open at 14PSI or so. If it is not opening you are going to have a hard start situation.



There is also a hard start reflash for the 98. 5-99's. My truck has the original program in it and I am guessing yours does too. The reflash basically modifies how long and at what rate the lift pump runs when cranking. What you can do is let it sit for a little bit, maybe 15 seconds, after the lift pump stops running and then crank it. If you still have the original program in it the lift pump will run for a couple of seconds at key on, waiting will let that pressure bleed down a bit verifying that the high pressure is or is not the cause of the hard start. If it starts good that way you know what the cause is. You can also unplug the lift pump and test how it starts with no pressure at the inlet. As long as you don't do any driving under load running with no lift pump will not hurt a thing.



Hope this helps.

 

[ralphr]

Ok, OK, I was a little concerned about trying to start with pump unplugged! But it worked I tried it 3 times and 3 times in a row she fired right up! Now the question is what options do I have with this condition? I suppose I could take the pump back, (they come with a six month warrenty), but will I get a hassel because I am saying it appears to have 2lbs more pressure at idle than norm? Is there anything else I can do, or is there something else wrong to cause the high pressure????????????

 

[LSMITH]

Ralph, I would bet that it is not the lift pump that is the problem, it is the overflow valve. It is in the return line banjo. You can get a new one from Cummins or the dealer, Cummins will be cheaper and will likely have it in stock. You will basically replace the return banjo. Get new sealing washers with it. Let us know if it is the fix for sure, Howard.

 

[ralphr]

OK, both Dodge and cummins are closed today, I'll call cummins tommorow and see if they have it in stock. you don't happen to have a part number? Went bike riding with the wife, after I opened the hood, disconected the pump, had her turn the key, abnd it started right up, I reconected the pump right away and away we went! perfect...

 

[ralphr]

still not right

went to cummins and purchased the banjo bolt/check valve and replaced existing. helps but engine still cranks for 10 - 15 seconds before starting. when I disconect the fuel pump it fires in 2 - 3 seconds, (like before). what if I get a relay and wire it to the lift pump with a switch in the cab so I can turn on/off the lift pump????

 

[LSMITH]

Well Ralph, I am glad it is better. I really don't want to, but I am going to recommend that you take it to the dealer for the hard start reflash. The switch in the cab would do what you want, but it really isn't necessary if the reflash works, it will cut the lift pump back electrically to get the pressure down. I will look and see if I can find the TSB # for you.



EDIT: Ralph, I found what I believe is the right TSB for the hard start, it is TSB 18-015-00 and may also be called TSB 18-015-00a, this will cut the fuel back during starting and is covered my the warranty. Hope this helps.

 

[ralphr]

going to dealer

with great trepedation I have called the local dealer and made an appointment. on the plus side, I mentioned the TSB an immeadiatley the service writer said, OH! sounds like you have a hard start problem. it seems I am not the first with this issue and the dealer seems aware. on the down side, he also said, we can also check the return line for leaks, it gets brittle and sucks air. I don't bye that one, but mabey I am ignorant. it would seem the return is under pressure and could not suck air, but would leak fuel if there was a problem. if he had said the supply line, any ware from the tank to the lift pump was sucking air that would be more believable.



anyway I am rambling, any issues to watch for? I told them I needed only the TSB fix for de-fuel at start and the hitch checked under the recall. thanks again.

 

[jdub]

fuel line leak

My '96 was getting progressively harder to start after the dealer changed the fuel filter. If it was started daily there was no hesitation, after a week it might take 10-20 seconds. The Cummins dealer told me took look for a cracked return line just behind the filter which would slowly leak air and the fuel would then drain down into the tank. After smelling fuel around the left wheel well I took it to the dealer who knew right away what the problem was. $99 and three hours got me a new hose. Don't try this at home as the lift went up and down 7 times during the effort and the mechanics arm looked like a bear attack. Anyone know of a better hose to resist the heat of the engine block?

 

[ralphr]

final chapter???

Oo. Oo. OK, I just returned from picking up my truck from the orlando dodge dealer. invoice stated "performed TSB 1801500A for hard to start condition". they were prompt and it was ready when they said it would be. starts like new! also noticed "flashed ECM for vehicle performance". is that the dreaded ecm flash for gov't epa polution controls? or is it really to enhance performance? :--) it does sound differant, but I can not really tell if performance was "enhanced". I guess I will have to check millage etc to see if anything changed. One positive note since I replaced the lift pump trip monitor says I am getting 18. 3 MPH, used to be 15 something hope thats for real and the "performance enhancement" did not change that!!!



rambling again, thanks everyone for your suggestions and support.....

 

[LSMITH]

SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Success is always a good thing ralph. I am really pleased that it worked out for you.

 

[BCFAST]

We had a CFLTDR meeting at Orlando Dodge last fall... they are knowlegable and accomodating. Unlike most dealerships, they have at least 2 diesel techs that know their stuff! Glad to hear you had a good experience!

 

[Rogue Ram]

Is there a sticker under the hood?

Under your hood, probably on the painted metal piece running parallel with the top of the radiator, there should be an aluminum colored sticker..... on my rig it is more on the drivers side, and is about the size of an index card..... I open the hood and its staring me in the face. On it written in ball point pen should be the TSB for the performance flash..... for your truck it should be 18-11-99---you have a 99, correct? This flash should boost your MPG and your power noticeably. If it is ANOTHER TSB, check it out on Fritz site... ..... and yes, there are some idiot dealerships that are still sticking the dreaded EPA flash into newer trucks, and the results are nothing short of disasterous---happened to my pal a few months ago. Let us know... ... ... ... ... ... ...

 

[ralphr]

TSB

Rouge Ram you are right! the first thing I did was pop the hood and checked for anything unusual, never saw the sticker! now for the bad news the sticker says ecm reflashed pn ..... per TSB 18-15-00, which is the de-fuel on start tsb. no mention of anythiny else, the invoice however clearly states that in addition to that reflash it also said "Flahsed ECM for vehicle performance". as I said earlier the engine does sound differant, and it shifts differant, seems a little firmer, and when in lock-up it does not "unlock" as easily as before.



I am getting ready to take her down the block, (going to Alabama and back on soom business), and I am going to really pay attention to millage. so far still starts good, and no complaints with the way she is running.

 

[Rogue Ram]

...sounds like you got the right one

It would appear you got the right flash. Geez, my poor pal took his in to form something simple... wanna say a broken oil cap on the valve cover..... and asked them to also change the fuel filter while he was there. OOPS. The idiots re-flashed his 2000 with the old EPA flash for the 98s. :--) He was panicking... . wondering where his power and mpg went to. Had a real battle, and finally paid to go to Cummins, whose service manager came out grinning at him. They "NO CHARGED" him, and his rig is back to normal.



Glad it worked out. Now add a "stealth" box and enjoy watching your mpg and your power go up!



Rogue

 

[ralphr]

fuel millage

Just got back from my little "ride around the block". I went to Alabama to pick up a vehicle for work. averaged a couple of MPH above the posted speed, ( 589 miles in 8 hours 6 min. driving time) towing coming back 10 hours 24 min. per the trip computer averaged only 14. 8 MPG, very disapointed until till I did the math, total driving distance 1,472. 5 miles and 77. 9 gallons of fuel, if I did the math correctly 18. 9 MPG!!!!!!Oo. I'll take that any day, that included the xpressway some hills and around town etc.



thanks again