Have you guys seen this?

[DGFoster]

I don't want to get anything started,but I have to know a few things on this subject.

My brother is looking to buy either a Ford or a Dodge,and we both have heard that the Cummins will out last a Navistar,is this truely true,I can answer some of this since I have owned a 99 Super Duty and it was one he!! of a truck!!BUT I put 120,000 miles on it and I listened to all the guys who said it will start to cost you big money,I know an injector runs about $400 a piece on a Power Stroke,and the pump on the Cummins isn't cheap either.

I will say my Super Duty had no oil leaks what so ever,completely dry.

And I was going to buy another Power Stroke but they wanted 6000 more for the same truck and I went to Dodge,and am happy that I did,but is it really a better choice.

Now I know Ford has more configurations,but that soon will change,Dodge already has the half ton 4 doors out.

But engine to engine,which is truely the best.

I won't tell my brother either or,I tell him to look at them both and decide,but the tech side of looking at it is here on these post and getting the lowdown or another view on this subject.

So please give you views on this subject.

Can a Navistar last as long as an ISB engine with the same maintenence,and please see this thread I found on the Ford site.

Again I am not trying to stir the pot,we want to hear it from both sides. :rolleyes#ad

 

[Todd T]

we dodge guys should be worried

I sat and listened to some Ford guys last weekend at our club meet. from what i was hearing, Ford is coming out with a totally new engine that will be in the 2003's and is to evolve over the next few years into a beast. they said by 2007 it should be completed.



it is to have a new design all around and include electronic over hydraulic injectors. which in laymens terms means the injectors are then controlled by the engine computer for there popoff and timing. essentially doing away with the limitations of both our type injectors and Fords too. not only that but it will have a comon fuel rail and with the two combined there really arent any limitations to fuel delivery. I. E. torque and HP output.



they were saying the engine is to have peak torque and HP output at just off idle RPM's. plus it would be able to keep PEAK output across the entire RPM range.



that is scarry,



just wait until the aftermarket world gets a hold it that.



after hearing them go on for a while I started secretly planning to dump my truck in 2007 for one off these, if it is true.

 

[JAK]

they were saying the engine is to have peak torque and HP output at just off idle RPM's.

You can't have peak hp until the torque begins to drop. Reason being hp = torque X RPM/5252. As the rpm rises, hp will rise until the torque starts to drop faster than rpm rises.

 

[Todd T]

youre correct, I meant and/or I couldnt remember which they said.

 

[DGFoster]

I still don't have an answer guys

 

[HBarlow]

Longevity Comparison: Cummins vs. Navistar

Dave:



If you review the Cummins web site (www.cummins.com) you will note that Cummins claims that the B5. 9 24v engine was designed for an average life of 400,000 miles to overhaul but states that many have run 800k to almost 1 million miles. Navistar makes no similar claims. Somewhere on the Cummins website I have also read comments indicating that the lower end i. e. crankshaft journals, bearings, etc. of the Cummins engine are far larger and stronger than Navistar's T444E engine which is known as a PSD when installed in a Ford Super Duty.



The most recent issue of the TDR newsletter included a long article about a '94 Dodge Ram 3500 with B5. 9 12v motor which ran over 1,105,000 miles without overhaul in commercial service towing trailers from manufacturer to dealers all over the USA. The truck still runs but was retired by the owner in favor of two newer Dodge-Cummins trucks. In the same article the author said that he had interviewed several Ford PSD owners who also earned their living transportating trailers from mfr. to dealer. The Ford owners reported to the author that they considered 425k miles a good service from their Navistar engines.

 

[MidwestMotorman]

bottom end

Follow the link to the thread showing some differences in the rods of various diesel motors.



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21159[/URL]



The difference may shock you.

 

[merryman]

For years now, while having the Navistar available, Ford has declined to put in their mid size trucks such as the F-700, but they have offerred the Cummins 5. 9 (same as in Dodge pickup--just set up a little differently) in these trucks; suggests to me that Ford thinks the lowly 5. 9 Cummins is more truck engine than the Navistar.



Vaughn

 

[DGFoster]

This does shed some light on this subject,and it has been helpful.

My brother is leaning more towards the PSD,he can't get over the fact they are in all the schoolbuses and ambulances,and he likes the auto in the PSD.

I have heard that Ford waranties there transmissions for 100,000 miles and dodge only 36,000 miles,that is what is selling him on the PSD I think also.

I will keep you posted

 

[Gumbs77]

Well... ... My buddy has a PSD and if your like me and have no money to pay for labor after the warrantee runs out. Just look under the hood of the PSD. I took one look at his and just shook my head and toled him good luck. You got to be a contortionist to work on those things. Besides I’m the only one who works on my truck, that way there I know it's being done right. Yes the warrantee is nice but all my vehicles don’t have warrantees so that wasn’t a factor





Jim

 

[DHawthorne]

Had a Ford 7. 3 Natural, added a Banks system. Sold it with 165,000 on it. It now has 235K. Still running good I'm told. The only bad thing about the 7. 3 is the blow bye. Can't see how that engine can run as long as a Cummins with all that carbon in the pan, and throughout the engine. It reminds me of a 2 cycle diesel, like a GM 6-71. The two 12 valve trucks I have and one ISB will go 7K without the oil getting black. Don't known how the new strokes do for blowbye.



As far a durability goes. Continous running is the key. Cummins

uses the 12V on a 50KW Generator Set and says its overhaul is out there at 35,000 hrs. (1800RPM) 35,000 hours is over a million miles based on my last oil change at 196 hours and 7200 miles.

(Rotella T) I sure don't see any Strokes on commercial vessels either in propulsion or auxilliary machinery useage.



Dave

 

[Beast2B]

I am in the unique position of owning a Cummins for personal use and using a 99 Powerstroke crewcab 4x4 at work to haul a 10k lb snowcat trailer. They would only get an automatic transmission because not enough people know how to drive a manual "correctly" (their words, not mine!). With 76000 miles, the Ford has been through 4 torque converters and 3 transmissions, and the current configuration is getting tired. The last time it was at the dealer for transmission work, they reflashed the computer-- I'd swear they lowered the power substantially, but I can't prove it.

I wouldn't use the transmission 100,000 mile warranty for an excuse if it has to be replaced several times! Just my $. 02

Galen Porter

 

[HBarlow]

Cummins vs. Navistar discussion

This won't prove or disprove anything in particular about the Ford Powerstroke engine but I think it is interesting to consider in the ongoing discussion:



Do any of the Class 8 over-the-road trucks use a diesel engine with a V8 configuration? To the best of my knowledge all of them use inline 6 cylinders similar to the Cummins ISB. I know that diesel-electric train locomotives and WWII vintage submarines used V16 diesel engines. Those were old designs dating back to the 1930s and 1940s. I don't know if they are still in use in locomotives. Maybe the V design is still used in road-building equipment??



Even Navistar only uses the V8 design for their T444E (Powerstroke) engine. The remainder of their engines beginning with the next largest, the DT466E, which is used in medium duty trucks with higher GVWRs and GCWRs, is an inline 6.



Just food for thought.



I don't dislike Fords or Navistar engines. After doing my homework I simply decided the Cummins powered Dodge might be a little stronger and a little more durable. Just a personal choice.

 

[roadranger]

Too Bad....

The Cummins is FAR better than the Navistar- it's too bad it only comes in a Dodge. What good is an engine that'll last over 500k miles when the truck it's mounted in in is a POS? What with Dodge's weak front ends that prematurely wear out and wander all over the road, to their weak transmissions- the autos need $500 more of aftermarket parts to make them right, the 5 speeds lose 5th gear, and the 6 speeds grind. Not to mention brakes that don't stop, yadda, yadda, etc. Sheese...



And what about Dodge's highly touted (by them)

5 star service?? If the lot monkeys don't smash up your truck hot rodding around the yard, the mechanics(?)can't figure out what's wrong unless it's in a computer readout. Pretty regular practise to go back 3-4 times to get one problem fixed, meanwhile the wrench monkeys screw up 3 other things in the process. Their prices are astronomical to boot!



I bought the full coverage extended warranty on my Dodge, and they WILL pay for all of their poorly engineered mistakes and change out parts over and over again for the 100,000 mile life of the vechicle, when it'll get traded in on something OTHER than a Dodge. It's a DAMN good thing I don't have to rely on this truck for transportation, cause it's in the shop more than it's worth.



Cummins- YES Dodge- Bull Sh**!

 

[dthorkelson]

Ford vs Dodge

For all perspective Ford buyers, let me tell you my story. I had a 99 Super Duty 7. 3 and at 4,000 miles the transfer case went out when I was towing a trailer with a 3,000 lb Kubota tractor on board. I was disabled along the road and hitchhiked a ride to the nearest Ford dealer who sent out a wrecker to pull the rig in. Towing it in it was improperly hooked up and came loose from the tow truck. He hit the brakes, my Ford ran into the back of the wrecker, the trailer into the back of the truck . TO make story short I traded it on a 2000 which had just come out. This was really a poor piece of equip. Leaked oil from either the transmission or torque converter. Ford dealer replaced the front pump and transmission, still leaked; then replaced the torque converter. That solved that dilemma. At about 14,000 miles I noticed a leak from radiator. That had to be replaced. We then set out for Alaska pulling my 24 ft 5th wheel trailer, 6,500 lbs. During the trip I noticed a terrible vibration in concert with wheel travel so took it to Ford dealer. They resurfaced all 4 disc brakes Averaged a little under 10 mpg on trip. When the automatic transmission made up its mind to shift out of od on both these units, it felt like you hit the whole truck with 100 lb sledgehammer. I had installed a banks kit to the tune of $2400. and still this vehicle not even be close to my present Dodge for power or economy. Best truck I ever owned, and I have had plenty.



Present Vehicle: 01 Dodge 2500 4x4 ETH Sport, Black, 6 speed, ISPRO Boost and Pyrometer gauges, Edge EZ in mid position, 4" exhausts installed by Jardine, K&N .

 

[Bad340fish]

PSD

At work I used to drive a 97 f450(then badged as SUPER DOODY). It has the PS motor with the 4 speed auto. I was a Hot Shot Driver for Interstate Batteries at the time. The truck had an aluminum mickey body with about 150 batteries in it. Total wiegh on average was about 15K, I had it wieghing in at 17K before. . 13K of that on the rear axle. The truck held up great to 130K of City driving in haul *** mode all the time. It did have the front end rebuilt once but hell thats not to bad for a truck thats over its load limit most of the time. When the truck was new it had a dead injector right off the showroom floor. At 46K the transmission went, at 75K the transmission went. And at 130 when we traded it in do to high costs of maintaining it was working on killing another one(Never heard if it made it back to texas where it was sold). It had also had at least 4 cam sensors put in it. And that damn HEUI injection would kick the check engine light on at 2500 miles. The only way to get it to go off was to change the oil. 2500 mile oil changes on a truck that gets driven 200-300 miles a day(city driving to. . ouch) gets pricey. Its cheaper for us to purchase and maintain a 2000 8 bay(like a coke truck) 4700 international(which is still a POS lol) than it was to maintain the Little ford truck. Thats my . 02

Clark

 

[dthorkelson]

PSD

Clark: Enjoyed your thread. Hopes all is well in OK.



Don

 

[merryman]

I ran my Ford 135K;

2 auto transmission rebuilds

5 injector pumps

1 long block (cavitation erosion put a hole right through the block)

1 diff. rebuild

many, many glow plugs

2 glow plug controllers

2 complete brake failures----where pedal goes to floor and does nothing!!

1 aftermarket complete glow plug set up with glow plugs

and a number of other items.



The tough part was that with a 75K warranty, the most of the trouble including one transmission rebuild, the diff. rebuild and the long block came after warranty expired.

I got kinda tired of fixing it.



Vaughn

 

[MidwestMotorman]

dodge rebuttal

I do not think I would complain about the Dodge front end and premature wear. With this cummins motor, it is like having a snow plow hanging on the front end all of the time. Which OEM manufacturer makes stock equipment to take this abuse? No one that I know of. And how about even offering a warranty on our trucks!



Aren't Ford 6 speeds made by the same manufacturer as the Dodge six speeds? Ford has the same problems as Dodge with them.



And finally, Dodge has the biggest balls around putting this powerful Cummins motor in. They know that these motors can be hopped up (BOMBed), and that we can and do put them through severe use. I think Dodge made a truck to last, and that Fords and Chevys are meant to be recycled after 150,000 miles.



I stand behind Dodge 100%. Whatever breaks was just meant to break. Drive on, and keep on RAMMIN!!!

 

[Cummins Corvette]

I think that they have both had their share of problems. Go get the one you like best on the test drive. All this ford and dodge bashing is childish. I think that the dodge might last longer because I have seen many strait six engines last a long time while most of the v8 engines I have owned have not made it very far. A friend of mine has a suburban with over 400,000 miles on the origional 350 and it still runs fine. He has a jeep with 250 miles on the 4. 0 in it. All he does is change the oil every 3,000 miles. I think that this is the key. I would never keep the same oil in my cummins for more than 3500 miles. My old truck ( 91. 5 dodge w/ a cummins ) had 194, 000 miles on it when I sold it, and it purred like a big ol' kitten. Just get which ever and change the oil every 3k or so and it should be happy for a long time.