Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Head gasket do over in only 13k miles

[CumminsPower98]

Well I guess I didn't do enough re-torquing on the ARP's because I blew more coolant out towing another 5th wheel to Alberta accross ND in the wind again. I was running a lot of high 20s and up to 32 a few times briefly. Stopped for permit at the scale in MT and smelled coolant when getting back in truck. Popped hood and the tank was clear full and had spattered all over. Dumped it back in and topped off and drove on keeping boost below 20. It never pushed anymore out and even sucked some back in over night, which it didn't do the first time it blew. So home I go again to start over. (in Great Falls, MT right now for the night) I don't see any signs of cross contamination so that's good.



My initial torque went to 96, I then ran it up to temp, let cool and took them to 110. I figured since I went over the recommended torque after running it that it would be ok. I guess the gasket must settle a lot more with more heating/cooling cycles and the studs don't stretch like the stock bolts so they need more re-torques.



Here is the original thread: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151524



Ok guys, educate me as to how to do this so I don't have to redo it again. How many times do I need to retorque and how many heating/cooling cycles and or miles between before I can trust running up 30 psi, which is probably where I will set the waist gate if I can get it working.



One good thing about all this is that the first time around I put a . 010 over gasket on and soon after doing that I wished I had gone stock for smoke, starting and low end torque reasons. It's not a huge difference but it does make some. Would a . 010 over gasket settle more then a stock one or is the extra thickness built into the steel inner plate making no difference in the settling?



Retorquing the current gasket is not an option either because again I saw a few pieces of orange gasket material on the cap just like last time so that says it's already channeled out some gasket. I'm just really glad it has never blown bad enough to strand me!!!



I'm going to have to work on the waist gate as it is stuck from being disabled for long or the actuator is dead.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Hmm well I was bad when I put my van Haisley studs in and never did the retorque. Did the sequence working up to 120 and left it, then promptly drove from Washington to Indiana to get a car, then towed it home against a lot of headwind across Wyoming. This was about 6 weeks ago. I kept the boost under 25 as much as I could, maxing to 30 on steepest hills of western Wyoming. Maybe there is some other issue going on? Maybe one stud is bad and maybe broken?



Vaughn

 

[CumminsPower98]

yeah, who knows about other issues, I will see what things look like when I get home. Maybe your going to 120 helped I don't know. When I did a . 020 over gasket on my cousin's '97 I reused the stock head bolts and it's still holding after a few years and has seen lots of towing and over 30 psi. We wish we had gone stock on his gasket now too. Oh well, live and learn.

 

[MCummings]

I torqued mine straight up to 126Lbs without a warmup.



It's been holding 62Lbs of boost for about 6 months now with several heavy towing trips, and maintaining 45Lbs of boost for 20 minutes at a time.



Not to mention a couple of "cold engine" WOT runs and numerous dyno runs, including nitrous to produce over 1,100 Lbs of rwtq and over 588rwhp.



This is with the old "Hailsey" (Not ARP) headstuds, and a . 020 12V gasket.





Maybe your sealing surfaces are not correct or the timing is too high?



Merrick



(Mines a 24V,, forgot I was in the 12V forum. . )

 

[JGheen]

So far I have had great luck with the Piers method of torqueing. My initial torque was to factory specs with the ARP lube. Final torque was 125ft. lbs. Warmed it up to operating temp, shut it down, cooled it off below 100*F and retorqued with the line method. Started at first stud on driver side, worked my way to the back then from back to front on the next line over and so on. All studs were torqued to 125ft. lbs with the exception of the small studs along the exahust side to only 100ft. lbs. Ran it for about 3-4 good heat cycles with no more boost than 20lbs. Re-torqued again with the line method and ran it for about another 8-10 heat cycles and re-torqued again.

Some good advice I was given also was to scribe a line on the nut and surface of the rocker pedistal and head surface. If the scribe mark lines back up after the re-torque then you should be good to go for a while unless your really hammering on it. It took me 2 re-torques to get the lines to line back up after the re-torque. If the nut tightens down about anything over 1/8" past the scribe mark your probably going to need another re-torque after a few more heat cycles.

I persoanlly would not use ARPs torqueing instructions as too many people say it is too little of a torque value and 120-125 is probably the best.



Joe

 

[CumminsPower98]

Well I made it home just fine so now the fun starts again tomorrow... At least it won't cost much this time around other then a gasket and some time.



Thanks JGheen, That's the sort of thing I was looking for and figured I would have to do to make this thing hold. From all the threads I have seen on studs many are going to the 125 figure and they are working fine this way so I will probably do the same this time around. Last time I did only one heat/cool cycle and went to only 110 from 96 without loosening the nuts first. Did you remove each nut relube each time you did a retorque? I would guess that is the only way to do it right.



MCummings, that's impressive that yours is holding so much boost on only one torque!

 

[MCummings]

MCummings, that's impressive that yours is holding so much boost on only one torque!

I know. Wierd. Maybe my Days are numbered? I probably should re-torque, but it's always scary to mess with something that is working perfect. LOL





Merrick

 

[JGheen]

Well I made it home just fine so now the fun starts again tomorrow... At least it won't cost much this time around other then a gasket and some time.



Thanks JGheen, That's the sort of thing I was looking for and figured I would have to do to make this thing hold. From all the threads I have seen on studs many are going to the 125 figure and they are working fine this way so I will probably do the same this time around. Last time I did only one heat/cool cycle and went to only 110 from 96 without loosening the nuts first. Did you remove each nut relube each time you did a retorque? I would guess that is the only way to do it right.



MCummings, that's impressive that yours is holding so much boost on only one torque!

Didn't remove the nuts and add any lube, just break them loose about 1/2 a turn and retorque. Don't even bother with 96ft. lbs it is definately not enough according to most experienced users of the ARP studs. Just torque them to factory specs without the 90* turn. It should be 66ft. lbs, 89ft. lbs on the long studs and then all to 125. Retorque again when it has cooled down below 100*F after the initial start-up to operating temp and then run it through about 3-5 good heat cycles before another retorque. Just make a scribe line on the nuts everytime you re-toruqe and that will help you when they have settled in.



Joe

 

[CumminsPower98]

Thanks Joe, I got the head off this AM and it's obvious where it blew out. Cylinder #2 on the passenger side and bottom side of the gasket. I will post a picture later. It blew more material out then the first time. I marked and re-torqued one mid length stud before taking it apart and checked to see what 96 ft. lbs did and it went around about 80 some deg. probably. I then loosened and tried 110, which is where I maxed out before and it went almost 90 deg! So they were loose and the gasket had settled a lot (stupid me, I should have taken the hint when my valves were all tight last time I was home). Upon taking things apart I see the lube stays in there just fine at least for the short term so I agree there is no need to re-lube them except for the long ones because they get washed out by the engine oil.

 

[JGheen]

Yeah, valve lash check/adjustment is always a must after a re-torque cuz they will definately tighten up pretty good. You can re-apply lube if you like but all my re-torques have been in a hurry, so I didn't have the extra time to re-apply any lube.



Joe

 

[CumminsPower98]

It's alive again as of this afternoon. Will drive it some and maybe do a re-torque on Sunday.

 

[Jetpilot]

Be sure when you do the retorque that you loosen one nut at a time, apply lots of the ARP lube to the threads, nut, and washer then torque it down. Some guys have been using oil or a different brand lube and a few of the studs have broken, the ARP stuff just works good. I use the same torque sequence that Cummins recommends... I torque to a maximum of 125# on the ARP 12mm studs.



Doug Smith

 

[DJWyckoff]

good luck,

I have no experiance with studs but the allen head bolts (grade 8 or better 12mm about $75 if you shop around) we torque to 90ft lbs using stock sequence and then turn them 90* repeating the sequince. I have never retoqued and I only use . 020 over marine gaskets and usualy bump to 16* timing I don't like the sounds of all this retorquing to double cheak is cool but thats the only reason I have ever retorqued any thing I have had the head off many CAT truck engines some thing makes me think this is a hardware problem I don't know how much ARP relies on the strech off these studs to do there job just my opinion.

 

[CumminsPower98]

Well like I said earlier the one I checked was quite loose being even lower than ARP's specs and need the re-torque to bring them back up to spec. From what I understand the stock bolts stretch a little when you do the 90 deg. so as the gasket settles they keep it tight. The studs probably don't stretch so things get loose while the gasket breaks in. I'm no expert, just going by what works for others and what I have experienced.

 

[w-cummins]

The studs probably don't stretch so things get loose while the gasket breaks in.

Of course they stretch If they didn't they would not stay tight. Bolts and studs act like springs. The idea is to put them into the stretched state but not to pull them so far that they don't spring back ( past their yeld point). They might not stretch as much as the bolts do but they do stretch.

William...

 

[CumminsPower98]

w-cummins, I'm sure you are right they do stretch some. What I really should have said was that they are not "torque to yield" as I understand the stock bolts are so they don't pull for as long a time as things settle in and therefore become looser if not re-torqued.

 

[wildmanben]

so when you do the re-torque on the ARP studs, back them off a ways and lube up the bottom of nut and washer to avoid breakage? I am I lubing the wrong way? :-laf