Heater Grid Delete?

[DPellegrin]

Gentlemen- This has been a good discussion on this often mentioned topic-the worth of grid heaters. First, on the restriction issue I look at it this way: If the grid heater were a restriction the boost pressure below it would be lower than the boost pressure above it. Kind of like a throttle in a gasoline engine or your thumb over the end of a garden hose. This is a basic law of physics called the conservation of energy for fluid flows. I too have seen the inside of the intake manifold where the grid heater sets and it does look like it takes up some space. However, the air flows that the engine produces at maximum rated power are not high enough to cause a restricted air flow. Now maybe if your engine is producing 450-500 horsepower (very high boost) then just maybe the air flow would be restricted by the grid heater. Secondly, I'm sure you can start your CTD at -0*F like temperatures, diesel engines have been started in these conditions long before grid heaters were invented. I also think the engineers at Cummins are pretty smart guys and gals, they put the grid heater there for a reason; so when the engine is cold combustion is enhanced so that the engine runs smoother, incomplete combustion doesn't contaminate the oil and other things like wash down the cylinder walls and other bad stuff that happens when the entire engine is cold smoking, remember these engines have low compression ratios because of the high boost pressures that occur under load. Further, I don't believe those smart engineers would put something in the engines air inlet that would have a negative impact on the thermal efficiency of the engine, they understand those engines a lot better than we do! So you can eliminate the grid heater if you like, but in my opinion you are literally carving miles off your engine for no good reason!

 

[sweeda]

those of you that posted how many of you still have your fuel heater still operational. the FASS system would by- pass when installed as mine is.

 

[seafish]

i removed my solinoid and the check engine light came on, i checked the current draw of the solinoid and it was 0. 8 amp i hooked a 20 ohm 10 watt resistor i had in the junk box to the two small wires used smarty to erace codes and all is ok , none of our commercial 5. 9 have heaters

CKelley1, how long have you been running this way? I will be installing my GDP intake horn soon and am still trying to decide if I will install the grid delete as well. It certainly seems as if I will have no problems starting my truck as it only rarely gets to 32*F where I live near the coast. I do know that I do NOT want to be setting codes because the heater is not hooked up, so if yours is a safe, workaround solution to the code problem, then I am all over it. Thanks for any more info you can offer, also wondering what year truck yours is??

 

[CKelley1]

none of our commercal 5. 9, have heaters on them, they are for reducing smoke whel cold on dodge's i remove the heaters on all of our trucks , the 2006 was removed @ 150 miles

 

[DPellegrin]

CKelly1- Why remove the grid heater! What is it hurting? It only helps cold engine operating condition combustion! I think that is a good thing. For the engine and the environment!



Regards,

 

[CKelley1]

hold the grid up to a glacer or winspeed spacer and you can see the restriction, by replacing the grid and tube with a cfm+ you will see a drop inegt and it shows on the dyno none of the equipment 5. 9's have heaters on them , before the 3rd gen we used the engine number off of a crane to order the tube that did not require adding the spacer, just my opinion but i think that is one smog control device that does not work good enough to justify its existance. try it and you can tell the difference

 

[DCreed]

Please remember that Cummins built this engine WITH a heater grid as Dodge needed to sell the truck to the general public. To this day people still feel the diesel is too loud and stinky so 15+ years ago without using troublesome glowplugs they put in a heater grid to assist with cold starting. Does it need it ? That is up to the person operating the vehicle. Many of us like open exhaust but not the general public this truck needed to appeal to. I feel at lower power levels the heater isnt much restriction. but as we walk the BOMB path of give and take compromise (especially in warmer climates) it can be removed for a slight gain. Hey, lots of folks drive around without a tailgate as they feel its better for mileage I've run my best 1/4 mile with it on . What does that prove, nothing. I also remove the grid in the summers or for racing but put it back in when it gets cold and the (extra?) power isnt as important. $. 02.

 

[DPellegrin]

CKelly1- Thanks for the info. However, I have 2 comments. The first is the grid is not a restriction. The laws of physics say so and Cummins engineering says so. It might be a restriction at engine air flows that support 500hp. Cummins would not put something in the air intake that they knew would increase the EGTs, a sure indicator of reduced thermal efficiency.



Secondly, the grid is not an emission (smog) control device. It is not operational during the emission certification test as this test is performed at 68F*-70F*.



Regards,

 

[Forrest Nearing]

cold start emissions are something that OEM's have to pay attention to and pass.



the grid heater helps with cold starts



I live in TX, and I have always disconnected my grids. On my current truck I removed the grids and ported the inlet of the intake manifold cover. I noticed zero difference.

 

[DPellegrin]

cold start emissions are something that OEM's have to pay attention to and pass.



the grid heater helps with cold starts



I live in TX, and I have always disconnected my grids. On my current truck I removed the grids and ported the inlet of the intake manifold cover. I noticed zero difference.

You are right, the engine manufacturer (Cummins, not Dodge) is concerned with minimizing cold start emissions. However, "cold start" to EPA means the engine is at ambient temperature. The Federal Test Procedure (FTP) for the certification of heavy-duty diesel engines statutorily is referenced in the Code of Federal Regulations 40, Part 86, subpart N. If you read the test protocol the ambient temperature is 68*F-86*F for the test. This is a temperature at which the grid heaters are inactive. I know this is a lot of minutia, but I have actually done this testing for the California Air Resources Board.



Regards,

 

[CKelley1]

cumminns does not have heaters on any 5. 9's except auto's our trucks are stock fuel we are trying to get best fuel milage possible with out hurting life of engine we have 12 rams from 89 to 06, our own shop and 136 diesel engines in our fleet. the difference of the cfm+ and the spacer is noticable and can be documented on the dyno , it is also one of the cheapest mods we did. only half the things we try works, i would hate to guess how much money and time we spent trying to figure out why the afe stage 1 had higher egt's and lost 5%fuel finally scraped it , then when i got tdr 59 friday it had an article on why. knowing why we could have made it work i love this forum, i retired about 6 months ago and this forum has helped answer many questions i had on upgrades, i wish there was more intrest in max milage instead of power , it's nice to travel the us with a 5th wheel and not spend $$$$ cant spell for sh#$

 

[SShafranko]

Here is your answer boyz... ... . trivalleydiesel.com and click on diesel projects.



U DECIDE!

 

[DPKetchum]

Link dosen't seem to work correctly

 

[DCreed]

Here is your answer boyz... ... . trivalleyperformance.com - Welcome To Tri-Valley Performance and click on diesel projects.

U DECIDE!

I think this is what you meant.

 

[AMcCormick]

The Trivalley Diesel test is the reason I asked the question. I was curious why this was built on the engine if guys are removing them. Sounds like no negative issues if your staying out of the really cold weather. Meaning if I lived in Alaska it would stay in. Living in Key West for the winter and summer in CA I think I'll give it the flick. Looking to make the engine as efficient as possible. The more air the better.

 

[DPellegrin]

I have reviewed the test data of the Trivalley grid heater delete test.



According to their test data there is only a 1. 5 % increase in peak torque. This is within the measurement error of the test and statistically insignificant. On a chassis dyno you can get more torque than this by warming up the drive train.



At one test mode (high rpm, max power)there was a decrease in horsepower with the delete plate. You would think that if the grid heater was a actual restriction that it would have its greatest affect at the highest engine air flows, but it doesn't according to their data. In fact, if you believe the test data just the opposite is the case.



They state that they "... choose these two (test runs) because they had the same amount of initial boost (about 10psi). " Doesn't this mean that the engine did not know the difference between the grid delete plate and the grid? There was still 10psi at the intake valve.



I have to ask, if the theory here is that the grid heater is a restriction, then why didn't they measure the pressure drop (boost pressure) before it and after it? This would have answered the question quite clearly! Also, if they wanted to say something about engine efficiency why didn't they record EGTs in the tests.



In my opinion the test protocol is flawed because they did not perform a "return to baseline" mode. If you perform return to baseline test then whatever change occurred in the "equipped condition" would be the result of the change condition, in this case the grid delete. This is conspicuous by its absence.



While the intent of this test is good in my opinion the results are inconclusive. I do not agree with their interpretation of the test data. All the differences in test measurements are well within the resolution of the equipment involved, especially using a chassis dyno which introduces drive-train variables that can not be accounted for. It seems to me that Trivalley markets and sells these delete plates, so why wouldn't they say it shows some benefit?



The only thing this test proves is that there is no difference in the grid and the grid delete.



Regards,

 

[CKelley1]

i had no idea about the trivalley site or test before this post i read the article and thought it was great. like i said we are trying to get the best mileage we can out of our trucks, our 91 has over850,000 on it and going strong. we buy our fuel a tanker load at a time and is delivered direct from the refinery to our tank in 2007 we spent 412,000 on diesel fuel that is over $1,000. 00 per day any little bit helps

 

[betterthanstock]

I have posted this before in another thread. I removed the lower toaster element, so the air has more room to turn sideways at the bottom of manifold.

It cuts air resistance in half, and still retains half the heating capacity.

I left the two electrical contacts (studs)and wires, so it looks stock from the outside.

No issues whatsoever, and I think I hear more rumble at idle from the intake, and less battery drain.

 

[Tinman]

Dpellegrin makes a good point. To settle the issue we need someone to test boost before the grid (intake horn) and after (manifold). Would be easy to do with a tapped horn. It would also be important to measure rate of increase of boost pressure. Ideally, this would be done on an engine dyno and with a standard operating parameters. OK, who volunteers??

 

[bmoeller]

The common rail engines dont have glow plugs? Glow plugs warm the fuel or the combustion chamber?

No to both. Cummins has used grid heaters since the 1st gen trucks for sure. Maybe before, but not sure. Glow plugs only heat the air, except in that case there is normally 1 used for each cylinder. When they do burn up or break off, the tip drops into the cylinder on top of the piston and can do damage. Some engines have glow plugs that are in the intake manifold, but not most. All of the International IDI and PSD engines, GM IDI and DMax engines all use glow plugs.

So the heater comes on at 59*F. This does not seem very cold. So say starting the engine at 40*F with no heater? Starts barelly and once everything warms up all good? 20*F Can the engine start? Lots of questions but thats why I'm asking. Thanks

The CR engine will probably start just fine at 20* without the grid heaters. My 12v won't. I heating cycle is needed. If around 0*, I have to cycle them 2 or 3 times. Worst part is, they really sap the batteries. That is why I have bigger batteries than stock.



The heaters will also reduce cylinder wash down (unburnt fuel going down the cylinder walls into the oil. Very bad.