Heater Grid Delete?

[CKelley1]

the international had to have the glow plugs because they had a precombustion chamber where the cummins is direct i live with in 12 miles of a ski area, that grid does as mutch good as holding a candle in a snow storm to keep warm

 

[bmoeller]

The PSD and DMax are DI also. Glowplugs are still used.

 

[Winspeed]

Heater grid delete spacer's DO work.

Sorry I havent posted sooner. I let my subscription lapse.



We have proven it time and time again. In both dyno tests and real world track and tow testing. Even on a bone stock truck, weve seen a consitant 8 to 12 hp at the wheels. And up to 17hp on a moded truck.



One CRD (Drake's truck 800+hp) went from running a 12. 02 to an 11. 94 at the track. And the 60 foot time was the same on each run, so you cant say it hooked better one run from the next. The only change was the grid delete and it was on the same day 30 min from run to run.



Usually we see about 100degree drop in EGT on a hard pull. One customer swears up and down he is seeing 200 deg towing his 5th wheel, but, as much as I would like to beleive that, it seems a little far fetched.



I also dont buy that the heater grid prolongs the life of the motor. These engine take abuse like no other. I have not had a grid on my truck since it had 30k on it. It now has 130k, and most of it's life its been making 700+hp. When I took the head of it still looks beautiful inside. If anything, the reduction in EGT will make up for the occasional hard starting as far as wear and tear on the motor goes ( just my beleif due to my extensive experience beating the crap out of these motors, if its fact or not, I have no scientific data. )



The grids gains are not directly related to boost. The grid acts like a reverse intercooler. The metal ribbons inside the gride are 200 deg (Or what ever the engine temp happens to be) and will heat up your intake air, counteracting the intercooler. The boost difference between the intake horn and the manifold with VS without the grid is only about 1-2 lb depending on your intake horn. But the IAT (Intake air temp) is measurably different. Consitantly 50+ deg. I know there will be some people on here that will argue about this (because that is their nature), but we have measured it.



The Down side to removing the heater grid! Check engine lights! It's weird, some trucks will set them and some wont, but they usually only set the light in cold weather when the truck tries to use the heater. It seems inconsistant truck to truck. If you are in a super cold climate, the truck will start easier with the heater grid. But they are easy to change for the winter time. I know my truck still starts when it's in the teens outside, but it will stumble for about thirty seconds and then clean up. But it also has a thicker head gasket so the compression is lower. A stock truck should start easier.



Is it a huge gain? No, its definetly in the "every little bit helps catagory. " And in this catagory fairly inexpensively. They look cool too! If anyone has any questions, feel free to call me.

Adam

925-360-6711 cell, And I appoligize in advance, my cell phone's voice mail isn't working. So if you dont get through and want to leave a message call the shop. 925-370-7245 shop

 

[DPellegrin]

Winspeed- I don't have the practical experience of "... beating the crap out of these motors. " However, I have been around big diesel engines for many years at the engineering level. You were doing pretty good until you said that heating the intake air when the engine was cold was of no benefit. When while white smoke is coming out of the exhaust then liquid fuel is surely going into the crank case-period and not good. Your theory about the grid heater acting like "reverse intercooler". Just not so. The grid heater is no hotter than any of the plumbing or cylinder head that are all down stream of the intercooler. Please post test data if you can because it surely conflicts with what I have seen from Cummins. I guess I do believe that the grid heater acts a restriction on an 800+ hp engine and I have said as much in previous posts. But I do not think that is where most TDR members are operating their engines.



If you are trying to tell me that Cummins would put something in the intake (grid is not an emission control device) that would increase the EGT and reduce the thermal efficiency of their engine, I know those folks, they know a lot more about that engine than you or I do and that's not something they would do. BTW, I can assure you Cummins engineering has beat a lot more crap out of that engine than you have!



Lastly, I have to ask why have you had the cylinder head off you engine with less than 130K miles? Is that something that should be done as well?



Regards,

 

[Winspeed]

Winspeed- You were doing pretty good until you said that heating the intake air when the engine was cold was of no benefit. When while white smoke is coming out of the exhaust then liquid fuel is surely going into the crank case-period and not good. Your theory about the grid heater acting like "reverse intercooler". Just not so. The grid heater is no hotter than any of the plumbing or cylinder head that are all down stream of the intercooler. Please post test data if you can because it surely conflicts with what I have seen from Cummins. I guess I do believe that the grid heater acts a restriction on an 800+ hp engine and I have said as much in previous posts. But I do not think that is where most TDR members are operating their engines.



If you are trying to tell me that Cummins would put something in the intake (grid is not an emission control device) that would increase the EGT and reduce the thermal efficiency of their engine, I know those folks, they know a lot more about that engine than you or I do and that's not something they would do. BTW, I can assure you Cummins engineering has beat a lot more crap out of that engine than you have!



Lastly, I have to ask why have you had the cylinder head off you engine with less than 130K miles? Is that something that should be done as well?



Regards,

Like I said, There is always someone. I'm not on here trying to argue with anyone. Just sharing information on what I know and my personal opinion about this subject. If you would like to discredit my experience and knowledge, thats your porogative. But I have extensively tested these delete spacers. Erik at TVP recently tested one on a basically stock truck. His unbias findings were consistant with mine, and he is in no way associated with my shop.



First off, show me in my post where I said a heater grid is not a benifet a motor in cold weather? Here is my exact quote "If you are in a super cold climate, the truck will start easier with the heater grid. But they are easy to change for the winter time. "



And who said anything about white smoke? I agree, if your truck is puking white smoke, that is an unburnt fuel problem. And you should put the heater back in. However, Do I think people get way too paranoid about this? Yes. It's been my experience that it takes a lot to wash the cylinders enough to ruin the motor. When its real cold outside my truck will emit white smoke, but I'm not worried about it, it clears up in a few seconds. I have pulled my head on several occasions in the pursuit of more power(Porting, O-ringing etc. . ) and there is still cross hatch on the cylinder walls. It looks new. A lot of heavily moded motors will have so low of compression that they puke white smoke even when warm, its the same principal.



By the way, your intercooler does cool the intake charge too that below the engine temp. And the heat soak of the engine does heat the metal ribbon in the heater grid to that of the motor, which in turn has a negative effect on intake temp. 50 deg is what I have measured on an IAT sensor in the intake valley. The boost temp may increase to above that in the higher RPM's depending on your set up, and at that point the metal ribbon is a restriction. Just the facts.



Is this product for everybody? No it's not. Will your motor run better without it? Definetly, but you may need it to start the truck and get it to operating temp depending on your climate.

 

[hammersley]

Dyno testing for these small results is a freaking JOKE!

Look - there is no way that dyno's are accurate run to run ... . there is inherent error that is impossible to correct..... The Biggest is that you don't have a consistent test instrument - The FREAKING DRIVER does not drive the rig EXACTLY the same each time... . NOW if we had a ROBOT that did everything EXACTLY the same - we'd largely eliminate that factor but not all the other variables that make small differences a joke!



Be honest - run a rig on a dyno say 20 times - WITH NO Difference in the MODS - look at the numbers - there's an easy 2-5% difference - what number is correct - we always take the biggest one - is it the correct one??? Tell me you cab explain the difference! IMO impossible - it's the built in error.....

 

[DPKetchum]

Well my 02 worth. Its not apples to apples but. Had a couple class c motor homes we did some work on. In fact added Banks Stage 3 kits on them. They were 12 valves piston pump. They had no heater grid or relays or wiring for such. They ran like crap on cold starts here in mid Georgia. Yes they started but white smoke,rough running etc. started nothing like a truck with the grid heater intact.

 

[DCreed]

so unless its a 15+% gain the dyno means nothing? well I guess we should just leave the truck stock then, since most folks add an air cleaner and larger exhaust (each will dyno less than 10% gain) also the intake horns that people love so much and cams, heck if cummins thought this motor should make more power or be more efficiant then THEY would have done so, right! Gimme a break!! how much gain do you need for under $100? If you're THAT CHEAP get a 12 valve and turn it up for free, when you've done all that, you'll be where the CRs start.

Bottom line: you want/need every little bit this motors got and can live with cold starts? take it out, if not , dont.

 

[DPellegrin]

Winspeed- I'm glad to be that "... always someone. " to which you are referring. If you author a post that conflicts with a previous post you should expect a further discussion, not be offended. This forum is about the exchange of ideas not who's right and who's wrong. It is not my intent to discredit your experience or knowledge. I just disagree with you because your position is not supported by analytical data. I want to be respectful of your experience and opinion. I am sure that your experience with these engines is valuable for your purposes, that is modifying them to produce more horsepower than they were ever designed to produce. Think about this: I have two sets of data one from the engineers who designed and built the engine the other an anecdotal opinion of a diesel hot rodder, who would you choose?



You said:"I also don't buy that the heater grid prolongs the life of the motor" To me this means that it's of no benefit in reducing oil contamination. In fact it does reduce oil contamination. I think that's a good thing. Your theory about "reverse intercooler" just does not make sense when considering the laws of heat transfer and thermal conductivity.



Thank for taking time to post.



Best regards,

 

[AMcCormick]

Well I put my aftermarket intake manifold on with the grid heater still inplace. Wanted to get the manifold on for the drive up the keys. Looking at it in person which is always better than a photo, I can say that it would be a restriction but a small one. Compairing the stock manifold to aftermarket you can see a much bigger gain. I had questions on the function of the heater and they have been answered, thanks. I do beleive that it would increase airflow but not by very much. But it is a cheap easy "upgrade". To find an accurate average gain you need to do many more than two or three runs. Intresting to find that the comercial engines do not have them. I like the idea of removing half the heating element. I think that may be the route I eventually take. This is my first diesel truck and I'm getting lots and lots of usefull info from TDR so thanks to everyone. So far so good and really like my truck.

 

[DPKetchum]

I don't think most commerical engines get turned off often and don't idle(they run near or at peak rpm) I assume. The chicken house generators run by diesel engines I'd like to look at close. They test once a week(there a back up system) In ANY temp they go from OFF to wide open in a instant. Pivot diesels also. Like to see if glo plug or grid heaters or none. Also if oil system has a pre oiler to get lube through them before the off to WIDE OPEN.